Does MN have a problem with trans people? **MNHQ edited title as OP has apologised for 'accusatory' tone**

[tryandempathise]

Seem to be threads constantly on the issue of trans.

Why?

Is it because it conflicts with the idea of sex as a construct?

Is it an age thing?

There must be mums on here with trans kids - do you just stay out of it?

Why the obsession with the idea of being attacked by trans women? Is it not the modern equivalent of homophobic blokes all thinking gay men want to rape them?

I’m sure most people on here are aware of Blair White. She is quite open about saying transwomen should not use women’s loos- and gets plenty of abuse for it. Her line is “Not all tracks are for you”

.. transwomen who quite understandably not want to use the mens...

Nobody in their right mind would want to use the men's toilets. Including most men I'd vouchsafe.

I don't know the trans-girl well enough to know whether he would see the problem with any of this (he always struck me as quite a sweet, vague, other-worldly kid) but I do know via DD that the girl I mentioned is beating herself up because she 'knows' she should be understanding and yet she desperately wants the single-sex facilities to stay single-sex.

The only way I suppose is having mens, womens and gender neutral looks everywhere

Trouble being of course, that in our society, public spaces are default male. So we know that that gender neutral toilet will mainly be used by men, and women with older male children will hold their nose and use it when they're with them, and go in the women's when alone/with male children. We're just not allowed to point out obvious stuff like this.

alone/with female children. sigh. is it not even lunchtime yet!

Nobody in their right mind would want to use the men's toilets. Including most men I'd vouchsafe.

Yup! OH hates using them as they're rank. But you know, he knows he's male. And why is it understandable? Are they grounded in reality enough to know they're male? And women's/men's toilets are not separated based on personality and interests.

And I totally get that, because even just walking past the men's you can smell it sometimes, and I would hate to have to wade through piss puddles on the floor, but the thing it, that is a man problem. Men are causing it and they are the only people who can fix it.

If they're being aggressive towards transwomen, or towards men who don't see themselves that way but who other men see as insufficiently macho, again, that is a man problem and the solution is for men to stop being such arseholes.

Lemon's thoughts on McKinnon surprise me. It was McKinnon that caused me to fall down this rabbit hole. As has previously been said McKinnon has been beaten because McKinnon is not very good. Look at the pictures. How many other high level athletes (male, female, trans, not trans) have you seen with a pot belly? How many were in the Masters Worlds (A=one)? How could one who is so obviously unfit compared to the other competitors win and break records? Is it perhaps that they had some genetic advantage? You will be aware, as a cycling fan, that the main measure of elite cyclists is V02 max, not testosterone. Go look up the V02 max charts for males and females and tell me what you see. You will note that the V02 max levels for a circa 40yo female is similar to that of a 65yo male. It is not coincidence that the times for 40yo females is almost identical to that of 65 yo males. In what way can you state McKinnon has no advantage.
A paunch is not helpful in cycling as a large armspan is in swimming before you mention Phelps....

I do know via DD that the girl I mentioned is beating herself up because she 'knows' she should be understanding and yet she desperately wants the single-sex facilities to stay single-sex.

That’s so, so sad, DodoPatrol, and a clear example of actual harm to an actual child who has already been severely harmed.

Not only are her needs being trampled over, she’s being made to feel guilty for even having those needs. While dealing with severe trauma.

Do you see from an example like this, lemon, how it’s not as simple as “women just need to be kind”? (And notice the onus is always on women and girls to be kind. Not men and boys. Nobody is telling men and boys that they have to be kinder and more inclusive towards those males who don’t fit the traditional masculine mould. Why do you think that is?)

If you saw McKinnon before knowing who they were I don't think anyone would think "athlete". With most cyclists at that level you definitely would - it's not one of those sports where the athleticism isn't visually obvious. If not for the natural advantage given by being male how else do you think that someone is beating their visibly far more fit competitors?

On the children Dodo is describing, the fact that it's being assumed that the female child should put her own needs aside for the male child, and feel bad for even having needs of her own, is to me evidence that gender roles remain sex based regardless of how anyone "identifies".

I said hate because I kept seeing trans women equated with rapists.

@lemonsqueasy Just catching up with this thread, so it may have moved on by now, but I just want to say that I would be very surprised if you have seen a single post saying this on mumsnet, because any post saying this should have been deleted.

I had one post deleted because I suggested that rapists and paedophiles might use the pretence of being transgender as a way of accessing victims. MNHQ deleted it because it was misinterpreted as saying that transgender people were rapists and paedophiles.

... even just walking past the men's you can smell it sometimes, and I would hate to have to wade through piss puddles on the floor, but the thing it, that is a man problem. Men are causing it and they are the only people who can fix it.

Agree 100%.

I asked my son for his opinion. Men's toilets are disgusting in the main, he said. Have you ever complained? I asked - nope he said. He went on to say that he thought there was no point and expressed the view that it was "just something men had to put up with"...

I hope men do start to complain more. I urged my son to.

But yeah, this is not a problem for women to sort out for them.

I know some very fastidious men who tend to try to hold it rather than use public toilets if they can, and the disgusting state of a lot of the facilities seems to be the reason. My DH often comes back from using them making a face. Still doesn't use the women's, because he has consideration for women's feelings and respect for our boundaries.

I think one of the problems is that some vocal transwomen do tend to show quite stereotypical male behaviours- high among them the absolute conviction that it is up to women to solve their problems!

I

You will be aware, as a cycling fan, that the main measure of elite cyclists is V02 max, not testosterone. Go look up the V02 max charts for males and females and tell me what you see. You will note that the V02 max levels for a circa 40yo female is similar to that of a 65yo male. It is not coincidence that the times for 40yo females is almost identical to that of 65 yo males.

Poor old Lemon. Turns up with a load of ignorant platitudes and an entitlement that the rules don't apply to them.

Gets an arse handing on multiple fronts and rule breaking is deleted.

My heart doesn't bleed.

0ldCrone when I posted this I saw the toilets thing as an excuse to exclude trans women and probably would have perceived your comment the way you describe.

I'm going now. My head is scrambled.

I said hate because I kept seeing trans women equated with rapists

1. 99.1% of sexual offenders in prison are male
2. there is no evidence that rates of sexual offending are different in male trans people to other male people
3. saying 'almost all sexual assaults are done by men' is not the same as saying 'almost all men carry out sexual assualts'

like spiritual souls, or heaven and hell?

There is a bit more of a scientific evidence based approach to medical gender treatment though. Decades of treatment and research papers with some positive outcomes.

Re:’ transgirls’ in girls toilets.

My stepdaughter (13) is questioning her gender (some people would call her a ‘transboy’ but we’re trying to keep all avenues open, rather than making fixed pronouncements).

Stepdaughter has been told by all 4 parental figures that toilets and changing rooms are segregated on the basis of bodies type, not personal identities and thus she must use the girls, or we will request she be allowed to use the few single person facilities available/ask she be allowed to shower at home etc.

Under no circumstances must she use the boys because she doesn’t have a male body and those that do have male bodies are entitled to a single sex space.

If DsD was born male and identifying as a girl, our instructions would be exactly the same.

Bodies (not brains, feelings or deeply held sincere identities) are the reason for sex segregation in toilets, change rooms and sports.

Lemon's thoughts on McKinnon surprise me. It was McKinnon that caused me to fall down this rabbit hole. As has previously been said McKinnon has been beaten because McKinnon is not very good.

Furthermore, it is telling that McK deliberately chose track. An explosive power, fast and furious discipline that favours weight and strong heft over other types of cycling which call for much smaller frames, lighter weights and endurance capabilities. It is not known if pot bellies add to their ability or not though.

The official testosterone levels to compete are lower than men, yes. But still orders of magnitude higher than the normal ranges for women. And that is being looked at again as well - either decisons either being reviewed or delayed (long grassed).

I did some research on McKs strength a while ago. I posted the results on here, based on publicly available data. I admit a couple of errors which were clarified in the thread, but even accounting for those, McK is (again, orders of magnitude) stronger than several of the world champion female power lifters. My setting out of all those comparisons incensed McK to the point they ranted about me on twitter (hence my "shitbag" middle name )

So I too am surprised you looked at McK of all people and didn't think anything was amiss. have the responses on here to that aspect now given you more information with which to review your prior conclusion or do you have more questions on them?

My head is scrambled.

How come? You had some lazy ideas that you couldn't back up and attempted to patronise a load of women with deep and granular knowledge of the issues, who made you look foolish? You thought the Special Rules For Uppity Women didn't include you and discovered that they did?

Feeble.

Re McKinnon:

2) One of her competitors had beaten her on numerous occasions as recently as that week.

It's not unfair only if McKinnon beats every woman in the race - it's just as unfair if McKinnon only beats some of them.

The women who would have come second or third, if a person with all the advantages of biological maleness hadn't been in the race, have every right to feel angry and cheated, as does any woman McKinnon placed ahead of thanks to the advantages of male biology and male puberty, even if it only means that woman is now ranked 20th instead of 19th or something like that. It simply isn't fair.

FWIW I'm pretty sure most transwomen know this perfectly well and wouldn't do this, but it's bad enough that some do and the rules need to be sorted out.

No one is tweaking mens' races so that transmen have a chance of winning races, e.g. by making all the male competitors take peformance-reducing drugs. It's considered good enough that transmen (like most ordinary people) have chances to take part in sport generally, even if there's no event tailored to their unusual physiology (female but with testosterone over the top) that means they can get actual medals.

But womens' races are being opened up for transwomen for precisely that reason - that it's not enough for transwomen to be able to take part in sport generally, they have to have a chance to win something, even if it's unfair on the women they displace.

It's not true talent that's getting them those results - there might be some talent, but there's also a big helping of the advantages of male puberty, male body size and so on. Surely them having the chance specifically to win medals is not so important that they should just be allowed to displace women from women's competitions even though it's clearly unfair.?

They do have alternatives - they can e.g. cycle as a hobby, like most people, or take part in mens' or open competitions for the fun of it and improving their personal bests even though they know they won't be able to win (again, like most of us). They could also campaign for trans categories similar to the paralympics, if they wanted to. Taking medals from women should not be the first choice. (And you can be opposed to that even if you are someone who thinks that transwomen should be treated entirely like women in other contexts.)

stereotypical male behaviours- high among them the absolute conviction that it is up to women to solve their problems!

Yes, and also that their wishes trump our needs, always. It's still there isn't it, the idea that men are above women, we think we've made progress but I'm not sure we actually have.

If a women has no sense of feeling like a woman because she is simply born one, how can anyone born male feel like one?