Does MN have a problem with trans people? **MNHQ edited title as OP has apologised for 'accusatory' tone**

[tryandempathise]

Seem to be threads constantly on the issue of trans.

Why?

Is it because it conflicts with the idea of sex as a construct?

Is it an age thing?

There must be mums on here with trans kids - do you just stay out of it?

Why the obsession with the idea of being attacked by trans women? Is it not the modern equivalent of homophobic blokes all thinking gay men want to rape them?

The highest percentage (52%) of individuals with only one paraphilia were those involved with transsexualism.

That was back in the days of "gatekeeping." Being male-attracted was required for a "transsexual" diagnosis - that's a completely different population from today's transwomen.

You want to look at the "tranvestite" category - that's the equivalent to today's transwomen, who are mostly attracted to women.

Eyezwideshut so by your logic we should allow ALL men into female sex segregated spaces irrespective of how they present.

There must be a special circle of hell for women who not only want to deny other women safety, dignity and privacy but will willingly help men to do so.

@Gertrudesgarden

Do they have to be okay with it privately? No. But since there isnt any research to back it up and people seem happy to treat people like they did my cousin, they might have to get over it and realise there isnt anything they can do about it.

Sort of like my racist Uncle has to realise that he can't do anything about the increasing number of people who arent white or English living in his area.

Your enthusiastic, all-comers "yes" is trumped by 1 single "no" though.

That's consent for you. No always beats yes.

So what they found was that the trans people were most likely to only be trans and not have paedophillic or incestuous fantasies or urges

You also missed - surprise, surprise - that the transvestites in the study (who today are called transwomen or AGP, depending on your politics) were as likely as all the other categories to have multiple paraphilia.

Which is another important plank of the GC position: this is not a homogenous population.

eyez It's probably not extremely unsafe for you, one woman, to have one man next to you in the changing rooms.
Millions of women having millions of men have access to their changing rooms: it is vanishingly unlikely there will be no increase in assault to women.

Can you at least acknowledge that you understand that?

Because I get those 3 things, it doesn't seem extremely unsafe to have someone who was born a man but dresses and presents as a women in my toilet or changing room. It doesn't make sense to me

Sex is registered on instinctive levels. Generally, women do not like nor want male bodied persons in spaces in which they are vulnerable or in intimate states of undress.

Campaign for third spaces, rather than trying to force entry into women's spaces; then everyone can feel comfortable.

I'd question why my bloke was in the ladies because he is a gym bunny with a beard and might as well walk around with his dick in his hand.

There are some people I would be less sure of and maybe we should just leave them alone unless they actually do something wrong. That's what I think I think.

If we don't leave them alone, we risk situations like my cousin had where two women started screaming that she is a rapist and a paedophile. Remember, nobody who heard from a distance knows that my cousin was only using the toilet. They would have assumed,like I would have,that she did something to them in there.

Well we do that everytime we trust a man with a vulnerable person so it isnt like we arent already living on the edge.

There are some people I would be less sure of and maybe we should just leave them alone unless they actually do something wrong.

Do you know what the conviction rates for rape and sexual assault are in this country? Do you know how few "sex crimes" even get to court? You are advocating for a lot of women and girls to get hurt before it's proved a man has "done something wrong?"

Even once they were convicted, how would women know that this person had done "something wrong" so it was okay to chase him out of the changing rooms - are you advocating a system of face tattoos perhaps?

Sorry, I'm losing track of all your friends and relatives proving general points against GC women.

I'm still asking: it's lovely YOU feel safe and YOU are happy to wait until you've been harmed before being concerned about a male in your space, but what do you think should happen to the women who don't feel that way, will never feel that way?

it isnt like we arent already living on the edge.

we're already living on the edge so let's get very drunk and spin round and round with a blindfold on, what difference could it possibly make.

It doesn't make sense to me

That’s because you are apparently impervious to all of the reasons multiple posters have provided. It compromises our safety. It makes us feel vulnerable and uncomfortable. Why should women and girls be forced against our wishes to relinquish sex segregated spaces to males ‘presenting as women?’ Why do you think public toilets, prisons and women’s refuges were sex segregated in the first place? Any insights?

Sorry, I'm losing track of all your friends and relatives proving general points against GC women.

Don't worry, we'll segue to PMs soon, I'm sure.

I'm still asking: it's lovely YOU feel safe and YOU are happy to wait until you've been harmed before being concerned about a male in your space, but what do you think should happen to the women who don't feel that way, will never feel that way?

"My Nigel's a perfectly good driver after a few pints."

I'd question why my bloke was in the ladies because he is a gym bunny with a beard and might as well walk around with his dick in his hand.

You know he could be just as trans as your nice "real trans" friends and what you said would be extremely transphobic? Dicks are no longer male. The female penis is here.

There was a transwoman doing exactly that just recently, taking pics of themself with their erect lady dick while naked in female changing rooms. (Can someone oblige with the pic they posted please)

There are some people I would be less sure of and maybe we should just leave them alone unless they actually do something wrong. That's what I think I think.

So women are just collateral damage then? We have to wait until they are subject to sexual assault or violence before we think about their safety, dignity or privacy. Well, funnily enough, that's exactly why sex segregated spaces were introduced in the first place, to STOP this happening and to PREVENT it happening. Do you not think prevention of crime worthwhile? If not, how many incidents do women have to suffer before you think "Oh maybe that's not such a good idea after all?" 10, 20, 50, 100?

Perhaps you would like to tell those women and girls who have already been assaulted in sex segregated facilities by trans identifying individuals that you are quite happy for them to have been subjected to that because, you know, trans women and men just aren't a threat really.

But you have no proof that trans women are as likely to commit violent crime as men. Every study posted has been refuted. Even by the author themselves in one case.

When the consequence of having firm rules is what happened to my cousin, then I don't think your guess that you are more at risk outweighs the harm that it does to people like her regardless of whether they are trans or not.

Lots of people think black people are a risk of violent crime and use statistics from research to prove their point such as showing that most victims and perpetrators of gun crime these days are black. Would you think it reasonable tendency black people in certain spaces because of this fact?

*to deny

I'm trying to follow the logic (I know, I know....) and I think I've cracked it.

My older sister claims to have invented the term butch lesbian - wears men's clothing (even their undies), clumpy boots, has short hair, one earring (she likes feeling like a pirate), no make up, barely bothers washing her clothes (slob) and yet, she is instantly recogniseable as female. She's happy, she's never been threatened or intimidated like the PP's poor cousin, and if she was asked if she was a male, she'd be able to clear the issue up the moment she opened her mouth to speak cos her voice is clearly female.

My butch lesbian sister has ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS whatsoever in ladies changing rooms and toilets. She doesn't have any problems so that's it, all sorted. It's okay for her, so it's okay for everyone.
There. And THAT'S THAT.

ooooh the black card has been played! I WIN!

Yes if we could provide proof of these claims please.

My cousin agreed to sign up tomorrow and will tell you all exactly what happened to her.