Jane Garvey - presenter
Penny - listener calling in
Helen Whately - Conservative
Laura Pidcock - Labour
Sarah Wollaston - Liberal Democrat
Deidre Brock - Scottish National Party
Belinda de Lucy - Brexit Party
[1:21:21]
JG: ... Penny is in Surrey with another question for everybody. Penny, good morning to you.
P: Good morning ...
JG: Yes.
P: One of the biggest social shifts in a generation is taking place, with almost no political discussion, because all the major parties - tory, labour, libdem, SNP, greens ... have largely surrendered to one side of the argument before the public debate has even begun. This is about gender self-ID and ...
JG: Can I ask you to be really brief, Penny? What's the question?
P: The question is ... My question is, under the proposed reforms to the gender recognition act, which all parties support, which would allow a man to legally become a woman simply by filling in a form, with no hormones or surgery or doctors' certificates required ...
JG: Yep ...
P: ... How will the parties protect women in single sex spaces ...
JG: Right ...
P: ... from ...
JG: Thank you very much. I think that's it, in a nutshell. We've got very little time, so can I ask for a reaction from everybody? Sarah Wollaston -
SW: Well, I think there has been an extraordinary level of hostility and, I think, discrimination against the trans community, and I'm very proud that the Liberal Democrats are going to actually reverse that. And if we talk about attacks on other people, actually it's transgender people who are among the most vulnerable to being attacked themselves. And so I think ...
JG: But what about the protection of women only spaces?
SW: Of course, I think that - that is - is a - is - is important that that is recognised, for example within our prisons and so forth. But in practice, the number of people who would want to identify for another gender, if that wasn't genuinely the case, is relatively small. So I think that there is ...
JG: So in short, the LibDems support self-ID?
SW: I think it is. I mean, why should somebody who identifies by another gender be forced to undergo humiliating medical tests and reports? And I think that we should be also looking at in practice, the level of hostility and aggression and attacks that have taken place on transgender people.
JG: Right. I mean it is worth saying, those attacks come from men, not from women.
SW: What I'm saying is, I just think that - that we - we should turn this on its head and look at the discrimination that transgender people have - and violence that they have faced.
JG: OK. That's the LibDem view there, and Laura Pidcock -
LP: To answer the question directly, we have said, and it's in black and white in our manifesto, that we will protect the single sex exemptions on spaces. And I think it's about bringing some clarity on what is a very kind of messy situation in people's minds, so that we would uphold those single sex spaces. I think what we have to do, however, and Helen from the tories will kind of confirm this, in that the consultation on the GRA ...
JG: That's the Gender Recognition Act?
LP: Gender Recognition Act - there were thousands and thousands and thousands of responses and nothing has been done with those. There's been no analysis of those responses and I think the next step, whoever gets into government, and we are saying we would do this, is to analyse those thousands of contributions on the GRA.
JG: OK. Helen -
HW: So, clearly it's a really difficult issue. I'm sure it's been discussed quite a lot on this programme on previous days, but we don't want to see anyone discriminated against for their gender, but we do recognise and want to protect single sex spaces.
JG: Belinda -
BdL: I have huge sympathy for those going through gender dysphoria and that are living in a body that they don't feel they can identify with. I really do, but I also think this is a huge conversation, where women need to be involved in it far, far more. I think a [self identification?] can be seen to be reducing biological sex to quite an insignificance and that needs to be talked about. Also, the impact this will have on data and statistics. You know, if you identify as a woman, just - even if you - well, if you're biologically male - look like a man, dress like a man, act like a man - but you claim that you're a woman, and then for some reason commit a crime, how will that affect women's statistics in crime? Will suddenly - you know, you've got to understand the consequences and the significance of redefining what is a woman and what is a man. And I do think women organisations need to be part of the discussion and not hounded out. I think there's quite an intolerance and a ...
JG: Well, yes ...
BdL: ... authoritarian sort of ...
JG: I just ...
BdL: Yup.
JG: Thank you very much. Deidre, in Edinburgh -
DB: Yes, it's a shame there's so little time left to discuss this unfortunately because it's a very complex area ...
JG: You've got a good minute.
DB: Right, OK. Listen, we - I think - I mean, there's such a lot of heat around this discussion. And all of these issues really need to be considered with a lot of care, very openly, thoughtfully and respectfully. We need to ensure that the rights that have been very hard won, for both trans people and women, are maintained, and that we build upon the progress we've made there. So, I've heard directly from trans - young trans people in particular, of the fears they face, so for us, the GRA act that - the draft bill that we are introducing early next year - that's about ensuring that all young people have access to support from a trusted adult. And then we're also, of course, very much aware of the concerns that many people have about changing the current process. And the Scottish Government does have a - has a duty to address that. But the Equality Act is nearly a decade old now. It's clear that where it is proportionate and justifiable there can be exclusions from certain single sex services, and that applies in cases even when a trans person has legal recognition.