Ok Boomers and euthenasia

[Backinthecloset123]

I'm in NZ where a bill has just been passed to have a referendum on euthinasia/assisted dying. This will take place next year.

I have always been a firm advocate....until now. As one of the last baby boomers I'm aware that our numbers are starting to peak in elder care and resources, and will continue to peak for quite a few years.

My issue is, will euthenasia be embraced by the woke in a similar way that gender/queer/trans issues have?

Will, or could, many non boomers think of us boomers the same way they think of te*fs? (non rationally). Could it get out of hand as trans ideology has?

I'm blown away how quickly queer Theory entailed rationality went out the window, and can see the same possibly happening in other areas including assisted dying.

Strange times.

@Gabby200

I totally agree with you. Interesting, isn't it, that those of us who would qualify for this are saying no. And those who aren't living through it are saying yes. Largely based on seeing what others go through.

An elderly person saying they are ready to go does not mean that they would choose to euthanize themselves before their natural end.

The thoughtlessness of posters advocating for euthanasia, based on the lack of vulnerability of the old people they know, is a first class demonstration of why laws must always protect the most vulnerable first - because their very existence won't occur to many of those in our increasingly self absorbed and myopic society.

I'm 53 & hadn't really thought about dying until my dad fell ill & passed away earlier this year. After seeing the conditions of where he passed away & the lack of treatment, dignity & care, I have made my mind up that if right to die is legalised here, the first sight of any life threatening condition or dementia & I'm off. I'm not making any plans for living past 70, 75 max. I have always said that if I got cancer, I wouldn't cope with treatment & would rather not know what I had wrong with me, other than my mum & my son, I have no other close family & once my son is an adult & has his own life I would have no qualms about choosing euthanasia.

Thank you, Sir Ching.

I thought I never wanted a child until I accidentally fell pregnant.

One cannot know how one feels about one’s own death until one is on the precipice.

My father often said that if he were diagnosed with terminal illness, he’d end his life himself, swiftly.

And then he was diagnosed with terminal illness and fought hard for every last second of life, because despite pain, disability, the humiliations of dependency, he loved life and loved my mother.

People who speak with assurance regarding what they’d do cannot know that’s what they’d do, and it’s not right for the healthy to project their assumptions about mortality onto those facing it.

Great posts, Sir Ching, especially this:

My daughter has a mum who can love her and who she loves, and it turns out that THAT is a far bigger reason to live, than my disability is to die.

Made my eyes a bit wet, actually, as it reminds me so much of how my mother and I felt when she was facing the end of her life.

Change the law and you give no veil of protection to those that need the protection at one of the most vulnerable times of their lives

That really depends on how you change the law though doesn't it? I've not seen any suggestion that relatives will be able to just decide to finish off a tiresome relative at the drop of a hat.

I have one living parent having seen the die a pretty horrible death. That has doubtlessly affected how my dad (and I and my siblings) view life and death and the process of moving from one to the other. I know the living death scenarios that fill my dad with horror. If he could make provision for those scenarios he would be happier in the years he has less. As he put it, at a certain age it isn't death that frightens you, it the the process of getting there.

There have always been, are and always will be abusive relatives and just as there are laws now to try and prevent elder abuse I think any discussion about euthanasia needs to be looking at the checks and measures that exist to ensure that only individuals are making decisions about themselves. But I absolutely support the rights of individuals to make those decisions and to be given access to the most painless/least traumatic ways of ending their lives if they see fit.

“illness such as MND

If only a small number of people would benefit, then the risk of unknown unknowns and unforseen implications to a potentially larger number of people, should surely take precedence over the small number who would benefit?“

No, because the small number of people are suffering immensely, and the risks to that group and others for whom there could be potential, future risks are manageable via the law.

Apologies for the typos!

@ DuMondeB. Thank you and I am so sorry for your loss. It's trite but true that love really is so much stronger than our fears are. I am glad you and your mum got that time together

Sorry, @DuMondeB

No, because the small number of people are suffering immensely, and the risks to that group and others for whom there could be potential, future risks are manageable via the law

Really? Please explain how societal pressure and changing cultural norms can be managed by law?

Also ending suffering doesn't = death. It does involve decent, well funded palliative care though.

support the rights of individuals to make those decisions and to be given access to the most painless/least traumatic ways of ending their lives if they see fit

It isn't a right - if it was then it would be legal under the human rights act.

No-one has the right to demand that a health care professional kill them. People have the right to end their own lives.

With rights, come responsibilities. Still, as always, people talk about wishes as "rights" and ignore the fact that the law is not infallible simply because it exists.......you know we have people in big buildings called prisons whose very existence demonstrates that?

How will we ever get decent palliative care though unless we start talking about how painful and undignified dying can be without it? This is what I always come back to.

You see we would be naive to think that what they call underground euthanasia isn't going on all the time.

I'm pretty sure that this is how my mum died. She had advanced dementia and no longer knew that I was her daughter. She was given some drugs in a Spanish hospital (where she had been admitted for an unrelated condition) after which she 'slipped away'. I missed her death by half an hour because I let a train go as my Spanish is rubbish, and I panicked.

I am against euthanasia, but I do not hold this against the doctors. Was it deliberate? I don't know but apparently people often die because of the strong drugs given as part of palliative care.

Doctors in the Netherlands are concerned that once assisted dying is legalised then this leads to a death industry.

I took this quite from an article in the Guardian

This month, annual figures from the bodies that review euthanasia cases in the Netherlands showed an 8.1% increase in assisted deaths in 2017, taking the total to nearly 6,600 people. It came on top of a 10% annual increase the previous year. The vast majority had cancer, heart and arterial disease, or diseases of the nervous system, such as Parkinson’s and multiple sclerosis. But 169 had dementia, up from 141 the previous year. And 83 had severe psychiatric illnesses – up from 64 in 2016. “Supply has created demand,” said Professor Theo Boer, who supported the 2002 legislation but resigned from a regulatory body in 2014 amid concern about rising numbers. “We’re getting used to euthanasia, that is exactly what should not happen. We’re no longer speaking about the exceptional situations that the law was created for, but a gradual process towards organised death.”

And apparently nearly all those people killed for psychiatric-related disorders were women.

Organised death is no joke. I really take your point Floisme but I ask you this. If you do not trust the NHS to properly administer palliative care, how do you think they will handle organised death? Doctors have told me that there is no need for anyone to die in excruciating pain, but I know this still happens.

In one case in the Netherlands, an Alzheimer's patient change her mind and her family held her down while the doctor administered the injection. In another case, an anonymous 18-year-old psychiatric patient was killed.

People argue that this will only be used in the most severe cases but one pp has already argued that poverty would cause her so much suffering that she should have the right to organise her death on demand at the hands of a trained practitioner.

This is where this issue starts to become like the transgender issue. If she tells you that her inner suffering is as great as someone with end-stage cancer, who are we to contradict this? How do we judge between different levels and types of suffering?

And to the pp 3timeslucky, I don't know where you got the idea that this is about evil disgruntled relatives wanting to off their cumbersome relatives!! This is not anywhere close to being the main issue, but you have made me laugh a couple of times in the midst of a grim discussion, so thanks for that!

@Floisme I totally agree with you about that. If people knew that their death wouldn't be painful and horrific, then surely fewer would want to leave their families earlier than necessary.

The fact that in the 6th richest country in the world, people are campaigning for euthanasia, largely because palliative care is so underfunded, is absolutely disgraceful. Yet we can afford billions on the Olympics?

It is a disgrace that our humanity is secondary to our entertainment.

I really take your point Floisme but I ask you this. If you do not trust the NHS to properly administer palliative care, how do you think they will handle organised death? Doctors have told me that there is no need for anyone to die in excruciating pain, but I know this still happens

Firstly I agree you can never really know what you would want until it happens to you. The urge to live is very strong.

As to the question, I know it still happens too. But it's not so much that I don't trust them to do it (administer palliative care). My impression was that either they didn't know what to do - because palliative care is still so poorly researched and funded it's half a century behind the rest of medicine - or they did know how to relieve it but their hands were tied legally.

I don't have any inside knowledge by the way but that was my overriding impression as next of kin.

Sorry SirChing I missed your post. Yes I agree. It's scandalous.

You see we would be naive to think that what they call underground euthanasia isn't going on all the time

Yes! I know nurses who, when a patient is at the end and struggling with pain, have had their hands "slip" whilst setting up a morphine pump, so a large does goes through before the regular dose begins to be delivered. Or have felt that the patient was in so much pain that extra morphine was needed, which just MAY have the side effect of inducing death.

The point is though, that this happens right at the very end, when death is only hours or minutes away. Not at some random point in advance in anticipation to what may happen.

I'm one of the last boomers and I'm all for euthanasia, I've seen too much misery as a nurse for many years and I know I want it for myself when my time comes.

I’ve not seen any suggestion that relatives will be able to just decide to finish off a tiresome relative at the drop of a hat

I suspect it is happening now. Even without a change in the law

My thought would be if the law suddenly changed there would be no need to hide what was happening.

The point is though, that this happens right at the very end, when death is only hours or minutes away. Not at some random point in advance in anticipation to what may happen.

Exactly. And we have lived with these shades of grey for generations - once we start to enshrine things in black and white then the repercussions are immense.

My impression was that either they didn't know what to do - because palliative care is still so poorly researched and funded it's half a century behind the rest of medicine - or they did know how to relieve it but their hands were tied legally

I am so sorry to those who will be upset by this, but there is no need for the greatest majority of patients to die in pain.

There may be organisational failures which mean drugs aren't administered in a timely manner. There may also be medics who are too conservative in their prescribing of pain relief (that's a thing across all conditions involving pain, sadly), but it arguably isn't anything that couldn't be sorted by extensive training in this area and commitment to funding, so patients aren't waiting hours for two nurses to become free at the same time, so that controlled drugs can be given.

We don't need to die early to avoid a painful death, when we already know how to stop it in the vast majority of cases.

I feel dreadful saying that to those who watched loved ones die in pain. I am so sorry

My impression was that either they didn't know what to do - because palliative care is still so poorly researched and funded it's half a century behind the rest of medicine - or they did know how to relieve it but their hands were tied legally.

You see, I don't think this is the case. We have had two relatives die in hospices relatively recently and they managed their pain really well.

As an example of systemic failure in pain relief: I already take strong painkillers due to my condition. So when in hospital with a kidney stone, I needed morphine to ease the pain.

I had arguments with two nurses on two separate days, who wouldn't dispense medication prescribed by the Dr when I was admitted, because I was already on my routinely prescribed painkillers, and if THEY had that much medication it would knock them out.

Luckily, I was still able to tell them that not only was I NOT them, so it was irrelevant, but I am in so much pain relief that I am practically immune - it took the anaesthatist 40 minutes to properly knock me out for surgery.

I had to tell the nurse to either speak to the medic if she disagreed with his prescribing, or else get her backside back to my bed with the drugs within 10 minutes, if she didn't want to be subject to a formal complaint. Strangely, she did.

Luckily I am an ex nurse so knew that both nurses who did this were being massively unprofessional. And I was able to speak.

But we need medics and nurses to knock off the whole "if it was me" crap, and actually talk to each other and liaise with the patient, and provide the bloody medication prescribed.

This is only one instance and I wasn't dying. But imagine how much agony I would have been in if I was dying and unable to talk.

You see, I don't think this is the case. We have had two relatives die in hospices relatively recently and they managed their pain really well.
I'm not sure what to say, other than that that was the case in my experience. I did some internet research at the time as I couldn't believe what was happening, and what I read (as a non scientist) seemed to confirm that current medicine can often manage pain but not always.

I'm not sure what to say, other than that that was the case in my experience. I did some internet research at the time as I couldn't believe what was happening, and what I read (as a non scientist) seemed to confirm that current medicine can often manage pain but not always.

No, I'm sorry, had to go out, so posted in haste. I think that you are right. It would make sense that not everyone's pain can be managed even in circumstances of optimum care. But we perhaps have less than optimum care in more instances than we care to imagine. As Sirching says we are all different and it takes time to tailor medications to each individual. My husband's aunt was in a lot of pain in hospital but the hospice managed it well.

I also agree with you that part of the problem is the taboo against discussing death.