Ok Boomers and euthenasia

[Backinthecloset123]

I'm in NZ where a bill has just been passed to have a referendum on euthinasia/assisted dying. This will take place next year.

I have always been a firm advocate....until now. As one of the last baby boomers I'm aware that our numbers are starting to peak in elder care and resources, and will continue to peak for quite a few years.

My issue is, will euthenasia be embraced by the woke in a similar way that gender/queer/trans issues have?

Will, or could, many non boomers think of us boomers the same way they think of te*fs? (non rationally). Could it get out of hand as trans ideology has?

I'm blown away how quickly queer Theory entailed rationality went out the window, and can see the same possibly happening in other areas including assisted dying.

Strange times.

But palliative care often cannot alleviate pain and terrible symptoms, so death or continued suffering is the choice. And if you’re not physically capable to kill yourself or travel overseas you don’t currently have a choice. If you can see it coming you can choose death much earlier than you would prefer, or the choice is no longer available to you.

I completely agree, Loopy, but the problem is how to accommodate this without leaving the resulting system open to abuse - elderly or ill or simply inconveniently depressed people being pressured into suicide by relatives or wider society.

I've said this before on other issues - we don't legislate just for the easy, clear cut cases, we have to legislate for the difficult cases, the situations that can leave loopholes for the unscrupulous to exploit.

I would not support calls for euthanasia as for me it would definitely be the thin edge of the wedge, with rules and definitions slipping over time and being weakened continually. As others have said there would start to be pressure on older people, esp women some of whom would want to ‘do the right thing’ with the ultimate sacrifice of their remaining life. I don’t believe for a minute it would remain restricted to those with life limiting conditions and with time it would pretty much be a case of anyone with dementia would be under pressure to accept euthanasia (assuming at time of diagnosis they still had capacity and beyond any time when they no longer had capacity it would be expected they should die)
A better option for these patients is the practice of realistic medicine where medications are focused on those which help specific symptoms as opposed to those which are to prevent future illness. Also hospital admissions are limited to essential ones only eg if someone breaks a hip. Other acute illness could be managed in nursing home setting or with Hospital at home approach which saves money and is better for dementia patients anyway (as in familiar environment)

As an aside and with reference to oliver’s post it’s important to understand the difference in having a Do not resuscitate order (ie allowing a natural death to occur in the event of cardiac arrest) and euthanasia which is actively ending someone’s life

I can certainly see the overlap with these ideas and the way ‘trans rights’ have been rolled out with no regard to the rights of other groups Eg women and children with unimaginable changes in a very short space of time eg mixed sex toilets and changing rooms becoming pretty much the norm

I first noticed the boomer insult just two or three weeks ago, and now I'm seeing it everywhere. It is disturbing. Yes the young always disrespected the old but this seems a step beyond. It's another way of shutting down opinions. In this case you're old(er), so what you think counts for nothing.

There is a spectacularly silly article in today's Times where "Boomers" are getting told to stop getting wound up about the need for free speech in universities. The writer, Alice Thomson has had her arse comprehensively served up on a plate in the comments section.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-have-every-right-to-ban-speakers-c9whqd92v

@MintyMabel You are right. I can’t see what this has to do with the trans issue at all.

Does anyone have a share token for Alice's article?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-have-every-right-to-ban-speakers-c9whqd92v?shareToken=cb65f209967ada5bb3ff1157e759629a

Given everything else that's been happening and the way it's playing out in Belgium I have absolutely no confidence that assisted suicide wouldn't very quickly become a way for society to get rid of people it doesn't value. I also don't trust doctors to make the right call given what's been happening in Belgium - the old "playing God" cliche seems to be turning out to be true.

Who believes that we don’t have “assisted dying” atm with or without the patients consent.

And if you believe it goes on even though it is against the law.

What do you think would happen if the law suddenly said that it was perfectly legal.

I don’t think I would go near a dr or hospital again

It's to do with a kind of mission creep.
Its not about clear cut cases. It's about a sort of social contagion taking hold. We're social species, we conform, generally. That's fine in most cases. But for vulnerable people, it can lead to horrible outcomes.
And more of us are vulnerable and powerless in some form, than we are a clear cut text book example.

Think even wartime, say WW1. Nobody knew how things would escalate. At the start of the war there were young men joining up cheerfully. It's the right thing to do, all my mates are doing it, it wont be that bad. And young men often have a thirst for adventure and heroism, and they wanted to do something good for their country and more narrowly but deeply their own homes and families.
Authorities exploited that.
Old ill people want to avoid pain and suffering, and perhaps have something to leave their families.
Young troubled girls want to avoid hypersexualision.
Poor pregnant womendontcwant to face a life of poverty and 'taking' from the state.

Reality is messy.

This is a very interesting thread.

At the moment we already have a rationing of resources.

Dp is Type 1 diabetic and has stage 4 bowel cancer.

He was the prime candidate for a certain treatment that could extend his life by 4 years. (Could even cure him)

The NHS refused to operate on him.
The operation cost too much against the fact he might not live very long (he is in his 60s)

We ended up paying for the operation. Without it he had 2 years.

With it maybe 4, may be more

It could be argued that the world where the old need to die to make space for the young is already here

I'm really sorry to hear about your DP OliversMumArmy
Wishing you both all the best

In a facebook discussion on trans issues, someone (not much younger than than me, if at all) told me they couldn't wait until people like me died off. I had not said anything hateful (initially I had replied to a post where someone was dismissing a story by a detransitioner).

I have seen comments like this often enough to be worrying. It is worrying that so many people see political change coming from older people dying off. Not a big step from that to killing them off, for the greater good, of course.

Alright ladies, I'm officially denouncing this account as a fake/'troll' account in order to educate you lot about the boomer meme.

I'm technically a millennial, though at the older end, and I hate that "boomer" being used as an insult thing I see on twitter. Anyway, more on topic I used to be very pro legalising euthanasia, but over the last maybe 10 years I've realised just how corrupt and morally bankrupt some people are, and I've gone right off the idea.

Yes it's definitely interesting and frightening to consider this question in light of the madness that has taken hold with trans ideology. Only a few years ago everyone would have laughed if a man described himself as a lesbian, in fact it was a common joke. Now people take it seriously and we are not even allowed to point out that lesbians are female homosexuals and women don't have penises etc.

So with euthanasia, it could go from sensible, rare and well regulated to 'only selfish people get old, good people die young' with early euthanasia encouraged, incentivised etc. Young people could go on 'Young Rights Now!' marches demanding the old give up their space on earth. And like today there could be censorship so people aren't allowed to talk about it.

I guess this can be true for any topic. Anything can suddenly or quickly become taboo or celebrated and turn society upside down. I've never lived through a time in my life like this, where I genuinely feel like we have descended into a kind of madness. It's taught me that people can be very easily manipulated, that social contagion is a real and dangerous phenomenon and that most people lack critical thinking skills.

I have a 50% genetic risk of developing a progressive neurological disease with currently no cure, I would very much like the option to be available for me to choose when I die, rather than accept a slow loss of dignity and cognition taking up to 25 years. Having watched my Dad endure this slowly and very angrily I do not want this for my future and I don’t want my family to go through this either. However I cannot afford to go to Switzerland and I’m not thrilled that travelling forces people to check out earlier than they intended.

If you yourself faced a long, debilitating, dehumanising, painful illness before death would you really be happy to accept riding it out to the very bitter end because generational resentment is suddenly a new thing (apart from Aristotle obviously)?

In a facebook discussion on trans issues, someone (not much younger than than me, if at all) told me they couldn't wait until people like me died off.

I first started really seeing this after the Brexit vote. It's very disturbing. I agree with some others that there has for a long time been a sort of attitude that older people are behind the times and old fogeys, and little sense that age might bring some sort of longer term experience, maybe this is how its been since the invention of the teenager.

But I also am finding the current attitude a little different and more worrying, maybe it is that it is married to this shift toward authoritarianism and thought control and black and white thinking?

Also thank you @TheProdigalKittensReturn for the share token. It's so great to see all of those comments under Alice's article, it makes me feel that all is not lost.

I am a baby boomer. Your friend Goosefoot is going to have to wait an awful long time.

I am nearly 60 and my mother, her sisters and my gran (who is in treble figures) are still alive.

A lot of boomers will probably outlive the younger people around to day

But that's the problem isn't it, SinisterBumFacedCat?
There are very good arguments for allowing people a dignified death of their choosing.

But that must be balanced against the selfish and self righteous.

It is in the nature of young people to be dismissive of the old. Since Aristotle as you say. Before, most likely. Demographically though, there are more people becoming old than there are young people coming up. My granny the daft old bat who knew nothing used to say What's Rare Is Treasure.
Old people wont be rare.

I have heard When the Old people die off, the world will be better since the societal changes in the 60s.
Not much new under the sun!

I absolutely hate generation wars and “ok boomer” insults. Social media is what causes odd and damaging ideas to spread like wildfire. I can actually understand your concerns, op. I’m in my early 20s and believe it’s getting worse even among people 5 years younger than me. Some of the extreme and emotionally rationalised ideas pushed by ‘young people’ are a cause for concern (and no I’m not talking about climate change).

They were discussing abolishing the vote for over 50s on the Jeremy Vine show last week. A poll indicated that around 70% of under 30s agreed with the concept. Every generation has contempt for the previous one but I’m shocked at the disrespect and ageist views some of my peers hold. I believe it’s somewhat caused by viewing the older generations as clumsy and inferior due to their less advanced technology skills. Technology, or rather the internet is all incompassing for teens now. They don’t know what life was like without it, they cannot function or socialise without it. Their world and the world of previous generations is incompatible. They view older generations as racist, bigoted, unkind, unmannerly , damaging to the environment, against social mobility, hogging resources, etc. I’m generalising, of course. Nevertheless, this is a snapshot of what I see on social media everyday.

Your friend Goosefoot is going to have to wait an awful long time.

I think you might have been meaning some other person's post, I don't think I mentioned a friend.

I have never derided a Millennial in my life thank you very much. They have it bloody tough, in fact it’s awful for them. And l have Millennial Dc. And I’m jealous if the technology they have, and think l would very much liked to have had that at their age.

A Generation X here (by 8 months) and I agree 100% with TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince I don't have any DCs of my own, but I can see that my friends' children have a much harder row to hoe than we did in our time.

(That said, I would have killed to get some of the technology they have at their fingertips, especially during my student days. All those hours spent crawling around stacks and microfilm archives, when they can get the same information with a tap on their phone!)

Just on assisted suicide, living in Canada where you can visit your doctor or emergency room (A&E) get signed off by two doctors and be dead within a couple of days (put to sleep method). Too quick I think.