Ok Boomers and euthenasia

[Backinthecloset123]

I'm in NZ where a bill has just been passed to have a referendum on euthinasia/assisted dying. This will take place next year.

I have always been a firm advocate....until now. As one of the last baby boomers I'm aware that our numbers are starting to peak in elder care and resources, and will continue to peak for quite a few years.

My issue is, will euthenasia be embraced by the woke in a similar way that gender/queer/trans issues have?

Will, or could, many non boomers think of us boomers the same way they think of te*fs? (non rationally). Could it get out of hand as trans ideology has?

I'm blown away how quickly queer Theory entailed rationality went out the window, and can see the same possibly happening in other areas including assisted dying.

Strange times.

I assume the woman who wrote the Times article isn't a millenial and that's what makes it different for me. I regard young people being rude about older generations as being part of separating from your parents and I don't take that much notice. But you're supposed to grow out of it. When adults who are parents themselves are still behaving like that then I start paying attention. You see it all the time on MN.

I hadn't considered euthanasia in that context before and it's given me something to think about.

I think it really depends on the environment. If you were in a place with a legal system that favoured medical negligence litigation I think it would be perfectly fine (although I imagine most doctors would refuse to do it driving prices up and making it less accessible). But there is no way in hell would I trust the NHS with euthanasia. They’ll be ‘putting people out of their misery’ left right and centre.

But there is no way in hell would I trust the NHS with euthanasia. They’ll be ‘putting people out of their misery’ left right and centre

Maybe not left right and centre but don’t you think it is happening already.

Dp was discussing the incident in hospital and on the surface that is exactly what they did do or rather didn’t do anything to help.

Seeing the guy die like that Dp was for the first time really upset and scared about what could happen to him.

The first time he has felt like drs might not have his best interests (despite earlier incidents)

At heart

Years back boomers were referred to as OAPs. They were shit on because they had no economic value, but because they fought and survived the wars they had respect

Since baby boomers were born either during or after the Second World War this is self-evidently untrue.

Putting that pedantry aside, the use of "boomer" now has an pleasantness to it that wasn't there before.

The connection made by the OP doesn't really makes sense to me and I'm not sure if it relates to this Feminism area? 'Boomer' is surely a retort to 'snowflake'? And reflects valid frustrations about job security and home ownership? (On the other stuff, sorry they are snowflakes, I work with them...). Not sure I worry that their mass disdain for the older generation's resistance to cult-like wokeness means they will more readily bump us off. The issue of safety for vulnerable older people is a constant through generations. That said I'm personally exasperated by our refusal to allow euthanasia for the coherent, informed people left to die in suffering without autonomy or choice. The blame for that perhaps lies at the door of religious belief?

This thread jogged my memory regarding something I read a few years ago about the so-called Liverpool Care Path. This was supposed to be a humane approach to end of life care in the NHS but produced several horror stories that I think exhibit the reality of applying drastic measures like this. I have no time to read at the moment, but I think some people are saying that the package that eventually replaced it is even worse.

Here is an article about the actual reality of the implementation of these measures. I take the argument that some people want to bring in these measures in order to give them a dignified death. You'd have to have a heart of stone not to, but what about the hundreds and even thousands who might be denied a dignified death if the law is changed?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23698071

Someone ages back made a reference to witch trials being about getting access to older women's resources. I was thinking about that last night and it does resonate with me. I got very interested in that topic a while ago and from what I read, spates if witch accusations would follow on from a poor harvest or a harsher winter than usual, when there wasn't much food to go around and everyone who was able to work would have to be outside, trying to glean what they could from the land. Older women were probably the least "useful" group in that respect and they were taking up space in the home and eating food that was needed for people (men) fit for physical labour and children. A well-placed accusation that Granny had been seen suckling a black imp or coupling with the Devil would free up her share of the food.

I don't think it's a stretch to see the parallels here, when we start seeing older people as things that take up resources and have unwelcome thoughts.

Well OK boomer came about because we Zennials are kinda sick of being called snowflakes every two minutes. Now you know how it feels.

I'm not sure what you mean about Euthanasia becoming woke. Do you mean you would be pressured to use it? Or that they would be against it?

Euthanasia has to be voluntary, so even if they did legalise it were not going to be herding you down the road to be sent off on your way.

Although I also know many my age who are not part of the woke-brigade that's just an assumption

Euthanasia has to be voluntary, so even if they did legalise it were not going to be herding you down the road to be sent off on your way.

That's a rather naive picture of how social pressure works.

Care homes now have to be paid for by selling the elderly relative in question's house. Care homes catering for people with complex medical needs like dementia are more expensive than ordinary ones.

You're an elderly woman with the first signs of dementia. You maybe have several years of decent quality life with your children and grandchildren ahead of you. But you also know the care home bills are going to eat into the proceeds of your house sale, money you wanted for your children so they could afford a slightly bigger house so the grandkids don't have to share any more. You're surrounded by a culture which now stresses "end your suffering" rather than putting its efforts into better palliative care. There's been a subtle shift in social attitudes from "bearing suffering with fortitude is a virtue" to "sparing others from having to watch your suffering is a virtue."

How free a choice is that elderly woman exercising in such a shifted culture (albeit subtly) when she decides to "end it while she still has the capacity to do so."

Once again: we shouldn't make laws based round a Pollyanna-ish belief that only the most straightforward, clear cut cases will come up. We have to make laws with a view to protecting people in the really difficult, grey area, complex cases too.

As I've already said, millennials being rude about older people is something I shrug off as part of growing up. (And I detest 'Snowflake generation' too although I'm pretty sure it's not only boomers who use it.) Generations Y and Z however are old enough to know better. Apologies for repeating myself but I think the distinction is important.

I'm Gen X - so afaik, neithe woke nor snowflake nor boomer - although I'm sure the woke will be getting round to us soon... at the moment the woke seem happy to call me "terf" - which isn't ageist, just a bit "witch-hunty".

I just googled the generations, and 2 of my children are Milleninals - which I didn't know. I thought they'd be the next generation - because I also have sisters who are Millennials. I don't think my youngest child's Generation has been named yet. All v confusing.

But it does blow my mind that my children are the first generation to have grown up bombarded by social media, and never knowing any different. I think it's a game-changer - us that can remember life without mobiles and twitter and facebook will no doubt be seen as Dinosaurs in years to come.

Euthanasia has to be voluntary, so even if they did legalise it were not going to be herding you down the road to be sent off on your way

There is no such thing as 100% voluntary where money in any shape or form is concerned.
Some people will manipulate older people to end their life.
Some doctors like to play God.

I dread getting old. The only protection is to be generous to your children whilst you are still alive and bequeath all your worldly goods to a range of charities, so it is in their interest that you keep going

"But there is no way in hell would I trust the NHS with euthanasia."

I wouldn't either, the Gosport NHS affair should be a warning to everyone, and I reckon more have happened. People are living longer, develop long term illnesses, which will be viewed by some as a drain on resources.

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/30/gosport-hospital-deaths-key-facts-of-a-30-year-scandal

Millenials includes people who are in their 30's, many with their own children now. A lot of the "millenials ruin everything" digs don't apply to us exclusively, if at all. And some comes from Gen X...who should know better ;)

I don't think disdain for the old is anything new. And the current anger specifically directed at the baby boomer generation re; housing, employment and the environment are all completely justified. It doesn't matter that YOU may have voted against it/worked hard/gone through this that and the other, you aren't all the baby boomers and it doesn't change the fact that generation messed things up for us. The generation before may have been war heroes etc, doesn't change the fact they, as a generation, also started more wars, the Cold War, massively polluted the environment etc.

(I'm an old Millenial.)

LemonPrism there have been a lot of thoughtful and considered posts on this thread and I think shrugging it off as "you called us names so we're gonna do the same to you so there" is no longer good enough. There are many of us who don't fall into either the boomer or the millennial who are nevertheless worried about what treatment we're likely to receive as we age, and the devaluation of the lives of older people. It might seem trivial to some, but OK Boomer feeds into that constant drip drip of "old people are taking up too much space, old people are using up too much healthcare spending, old people are small-minded bigots anyway so they don't deserve to have these resources". Pitting the generations against each other isn't going to lead to a fairer society for anyone, in fact it's only going to contribute to its fragmentation into bitter little factions who don't see the value in trying to understand and work with one another.

I guess it depends on whether you have seen a relative die a painful death though. If you have you would not want that for yourself, but if you haven’t then you maybe can’t imagine how harrowing and painful it is for that person and hard for you to watch. Also, more so if your age is creeping up to older side and you are starting to think about your own end. We all know the young think they are immortal.

I have seen it and saw an elderly in-law have to phone me when she had not got to the bathroom on time and had an accident as she could not clean herself and no one else would do it. This could happen several times a day. She then got chucked into a nursing home where they helpfully put her in a nappy, to stop these accidents. They said it was for her dignity. So she just sat in that until someone could clean her. This was also in a very, very good nursing home, but they simply did not have the staff to change her instantly and she would then sit in her own faeces. She told me not all the people were treated the same, some were left longer than others: the ones without family visiting daily, the quiet ones who didn’t complain much, the ones with mental impairments.

I am in a weird position that I know medication I am taking will cut the length of my life, but I want quality of life now, so it’s not really an option for me and .I am in enough pain now, without old age bringing it’s problems too.

I am for euthanasia, but I do see where problems could arise.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to use the trans debate here though although again I can see why it’s being used.

I watched my mum die of cancer in her 50s. Literally watched, while a nurse held me upright.
It made me want a less medical exit and a longer life, not an artificially hastened one at the end of a doctors needle.

Anyway, It’s not so much about personal stories as it is about the difficulties of safeguarding against coercion and social pressure.
I wouldn’t want anyone feeling like they should take an early exit so that their kids can inherit the family home sooner. I certainly know some incredibly selfless elderly women who would be vulnerable to such pressure (which could be indirect and societal, rather than anything the family are doing).

Yes, full body autonomy sounds like something to aspire to but as I know first hand through the sex ‘industry’, choice isn’t made in a vacuum.

I think effective safeguards would be possible for terminal illnesses. The safeguarding risks for people with terminal illnesses don’t, IMO, outweigh the current issues faced by people with painful and debilitating terminal conditions who have no access to assisted dying (unless well enough to travel).

People with terminal illness also deserve to be safeguarded from coercion/exploitation! Terminal doesn’t come with a fixed time limit.

Is old age a terminal illness? Frailty? They are definitely incurable. How do you diagnose end-stage in elderly people? Where will the cut off be?

And who decides what will qualify as sufficiently end stage? Doctors? The state? Insurance companies? Will lobbying result in a gradual creep-creep, so that incurable chronic illnesses and disability after acute illness or injury eventually get included too?

Diagnosis of serious illness/medical trauma often comes with an understandable side order of mental health difficulty.

How can a system adequately control for depression caused by diagnosis or illness/injury induced PTSD when deciding who is of rational mind to choose physician assisted suicide? Will it not matter if someone is expected to last under 5 years anyway? What if that creeps to 10 years, or 20?

I used to be pro euthanasia but having seen the problems unfold elsewhere I’m really not any more.

@BarbaraStrozzi you're absolutely right I hadn't thought of the pressure. I only thought of perhaps coercion

There Would need to be a huge amount of safeguarding involved. I'm neither pro nor against euthanasia because while I don't want people to live in pain I don't want the mentally unwell or the non-NT to be coerced.

@EoinMcLovesCakeJumper I don't think the name calling makes it OK I'm just saying that OK Boomer has grown out of years of disdain thrown at millennials for being different to the older generations. I'm on the cusp between Gen Z and millenial and honestly don't see the same vitriol spouted about the Zs as to the Ms and so I think there's a lot of resentment there.

My grandmother has advanced dementia, and I still wouldn't want her euthanised because she can't consent now. I wouldn't have wanted her euthanised in the early stages because I love her. Screw the inheritance she can keep it all. I do understand what is being said about pressure though and am taking it on board.

I'm just saying that OK Boomer has grown out of years of disdain thrown at millennials for being different to the older generations
I understand but I also wonder why boomers are the only generation being singled out here?
And while you may be growing up in different circumstances to older generations. I have to say I don't think you're really that different. Nor, unjustified as it is, are you the first generation to face disdain - you should have heard some of the things our parents' generation said about us (some of it correct).

I'm thinking of the danger to older people a few years down the line when the Millennial generation are the ones who are likely to be in charge of decision-making about care, funding for palliative treatment research, euthanasia policies etc. If there is a mindset that Boomers are the enemy and here is a chance to pay them back for any slights, perceived or real, then of course I'm concerned about that. My parents are more or less Boomers (my Dad is a war baby, actually, but that's the danger of lumping all over-50s into the same easy-to-stereotype category) and I am genuinely worried that they're going to encounter indifference and hostility as they age and become more vulnerable.

Floisme indeed, "young people today" has always been a thing that older people like to complain about. I'm not sure why the current younger generation think they're unique in this. Possibly social media makes it all seem more immediate and personal?