Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

[OhDear2200]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

Yet now, according to some of the posters on here clothes need to be tagged as "modest" otherwise women won't be able to find them.

I find search tags to be very useful because I am among the 45% of women who buy clothes online. I do not go to last century shopping centers. When you are searching for an outfit and the words “long sleeved shirt” results in 35,896 results it does help to find a certain style or fashion if it has a tag. I see “modest” as similar to “boho” or “vintage”. Most modest fashion is very Eastern and Southern European Renaissance inspired. The name isn’t the best, but I have no anger over it and tags are useful.

women are too thick to find clothes unless they are suitably tagged with some sort of value judgement description

It’s not about intelligence, it’s about ease of finding the style you want when shopping online. Tags winnow out thousands of styles you are just not interested in. It saves time. Also “modest” has only value and judgement if you give that to it. It just means moderate and unassuming, not flashy to me.

Has anyone else seen the “What were you wearing” exhibit? It is a famous exhibit of what rape victims were wearing when they were raped. The exhibit proves that the idea that what you wear can affect your risk of rape is a prejudiced and sexist myth.
Erm, yes, that's kind of the point of women arguing AGAINST using the term 'modest'. Patriarchy sets up a binary 'virgin' and 'whores' scenario, but it's a lie used to control women. Women can be sexually assaulted and if she was dressed 'immodestly' has to defend herself against the usual prejudice that she was 'asking for it' due to what she was wearing and thus being a slut. Yes, men also sexually attack women who are dressed 'modestly' (believe it or not, many of us here know that too well as it has happened to us ourselves), which shows that the whole idea of 'modest' dressing doesn't actually afford any protection from violent men at all, and in fact only reinforces the false virgin/whore narrative. In addition, what it does do is shame any women who have been attacked, because even if they were dressed modestly, there will be the accusation that they were in some other way being a slut and 'asking for it' (it's not like you can't take modest clothes off or flash some flesh through them, flirt etc FFS). Women may not wish to report sex crimes for this very reason, that they will be shamed, because the whole idea underlying dressing 'modestly' is putting the responsibility for male sex crime on the woman.

Upfield,
I disagree. There is no binary of modest clothing versus immodest clothing. It is just modest. There is no style or fashion labelled immodest. The objection is creating a binary where there is none and using as justification the fear of men sexually assaulting women when in reality, it does not matter what you wear one bit whether you are attacked. Modest is no protection. Immodest is no invitation. To scream and shout that the label “modest” can have any effect on sex crimes is false.

It’s a straw man argument.

Antibles I have to agree with your point too. It's been made taboo to criticise other cultures for sexist practices (apart from the very extreme ones such as FGM). As far as identity politics goes, men are included in the category of immigrants, Muslims etc and so the rights of this class as a whole trumps that of women. Thus, we are not allowed to criticise 'modest fashion' for fear of being seen as 'Islamophobic', and so the sexism inherent in it creeps into mainstream culture under the guise of tolerance and acceptance. No culture should be free from analysis and criticism when it comes to women's rights (and before anyone starts, yes, of course including Western culture, FFS).

Plan, aren’t people using the tag modest for a variety of reasons though?

Many women using the tag ‘modest’ are presumably from religious backgrounds and while they don’t search for clothes tagged immodest, they certainly believe that immodest dressing is something that exists.

So while you may be using the tag for a specific style you just like the aesthetic of, other people do see immodesty as sinful, haram etc.

Patriarchy sets up a binary 'virgin' and 'whores' scenario, but it's a lie used to control women. Women can be sexually assaulted and if she was dressed 'immodestly' has to defend herself against the usual prejudice that she was 'asking for it' due to what she was wearing and thus being a slut. Yes, men also sexually attack women who are dressed 'modestly' (believe it or not, many of us here know that too well as it has happened to us ourselves), which shows that the whole idea of 'modest' dressing doesn't actually afford any protection from violent men at all, and in fact only reinforces the false virgin/whore narrative. In addition, what it does do is shame any women who have been attacked, because even if they were dressed modestly, there will be the accusation that they were in some other way being a slut and 'asking for it' (it's not like you can't take modest clothes off or flash some flesh through them, flirt etc FFS). Women may not wish to report sex crimes for this very reason, that they will be shamed, because the whole idea underlying dressing 'modestly' is putting the responsibility for male sex crime on the woman.

This explains it really well and has clarified some of my thinking on this topic, thanks Upfield.

You're absolutely right - it's a lie that 'modest' dressing somehow protects us. If it were true it would mean women in countries where they have to cover up completely were treated better than in western countries, and we know this isn't the case.

Also, a few people have said these clothes have always existed here. I don't think that's quite true - there was a gap in the market, for Muslim women wanting western clothes that were more covered up such as with higher necklines, looser fitting trousers and tunics etc. They were struggling to find stylish westernised clothes with Eastern influences they liked that were also covered up. Hence businesses recognised this gap and created fashion to cater to it.

PlanDeRaccordement As I've already said, the binary is put in place by MEN. Men created the idea of 'modest' clothing for women, as a way to control them, to mark them out as their territory, and to claim that any bad girls who don't adhere are fair game. The label 'modest' on clothing is playing into this idea.
in reality, it does not matter what you wear one bit whether you are attacked. Modest is no protection. Immodest is no invitation. To scream and shout that the label “modest” can have any effect on sex crimes is false.
What part of this passage I wrote don't you understand or disagree with? From what you've said, it sounds like you haven't read it, as you've chosen to ignore it and for some baffling reason are implying that I'm stating 'modest' clothing protects women from rape.
Yes, men also sexually attack women who are dressed 'modestly' (believe it or not, many of us here know that too well as it has happened to us ourselves), which shows that the whole idea of 'modest' dressing doesn't actually afford any protection from violent men at all, and in fact only reinforces the false virgin/whore narrative. In addition, what it does do is shame any women who have been attacked, because even if they were dressed modestly, there will be the accusation that they were in some other way being a slut and 'asking for it' (it's not like you can't take modest clothes off or flash some flesh through them, flirt etc FFS). Women may not wish to report sex crimes for this very reason, that they will be shamed, because the whole idea underlying dressing 'modestly' is putting the responsibility for male sex crime on the woman.
If 'modest' clothing doesn't protect women, why wear it in the first place?

Fashion for women is more diverse and inclusive with modest fashion as an accepted style among many styles. I would not like a world in which the only approved or accepted clothing for women were of one set ideal of femininity. To have the variety means that women who like showing more or less skin can all have options of fashionable clothes to choose from and still feel feminine.

‘If 'modest' clothing doesn't protect women, why wear it in the first place?‘

Because many religions consider modesty to be a moral good.

Comfy clothes that some women like? Let's attach a value judgment to them because that's what journalism is for, eh?

PlanDeRaccordement Variety is fine, but why the sexist label 'modest'? It's all very well to embrace 'diversity', but diversity of what - sexism? No thanks!
Endofthedays - Because many religions consider modesty to be a moral good. Many religions are inherently sexist and seek to control women through restrictive social codes that don't apply to men. Having said that, if women want to wear 'modest' clothing and embrace the label and all the sexist ideology underlying they are welcome to do so. That doesn't mean feminists should not critique it.

Endofdays
Yes people use the tag “modest” for different reasons like clothes to wear to worship, clothes to meet boyfriends parents, clothes to travel to conservative countries, clothes to protect them from the sun due to a history of skin cancer, clothes that are their personal preference of showing less skin but also feminine and glamorous, clothes that are professional, etc. But why does that matter? People use all search tags for their own personal reasons.
Some people search for an SUV tagged vehicle because they have dogs, or children, or live on a dirt road or live in a snowy mountainous area, or prefer the extra visibility, or like the extra safety in accidents.

I just don’t find the term “modest” to be sexist and the critiques overblown. It’s not a great term, but neither are a lot of fashion terms like plus size for example. Anyway here is a picture of Paris fashion week modest fashion winner.

Some people search for an SUV tagged vehicle because they have dogs, or children, or live on a dirt road or live in a snowy mountainous area, or prefer the extra visibility, or like the extra safety in accidents.
The difference between the tag 'SUV' and 'modest' is that the latter is tied up with thousands of years of oppressive social codes for female behaviour, thousands of years where women have been responsible for males raping them and attacking them and knowing they would get away with it because they can claim that the woman wasn't dressed modestly enough. Stop being so disingenuous.

Apologies for not having read the full thread - but Margaret Attwood’s The Testaments is extremely cogent about the misogyny inherent in insisting that women dress ‘modestly’ in order to avoid inflaming male desire.
I do think, though, that, in the wake of MeToo and the mainstream acceptance of the concept of the male gaze, fashion has become more sympathetic to women who want to dress for comfort, style, practicality, whatever rather than for the eyes of the patriarchy. An obvious example is the way that the ridiculous heels of the Noughties have given way to trainers and boots.
I absolutely agree with previous posters that the term ‘modest’ when applied to women’s clothing is a patriarchal value-judgement, and the reason we are generally shy of calling it out is heavily bound up in neo-liberal cultural relativism.

Upfield, absolutely feminists should critique it.

But it becomes a bit absurd if we talk around the issue by saying it’s not true that women lead men on, were asking for it, aren’t protected by a longer skirt etc, these are just myths, why would people think that?

We know perfectly well that people think all of those things because Abrahamic religions have very specific teachings on modesty and the belief that an immodest women is not only herself sinful but also leading men to sin by gazing on her with lust or raping her. And we have lived in an Abrahamic culture for over a thousand years.

And very many people still belong to Abrahamic religions and still believe these things about immodest women and behaving as if nobody really believes in modesty anymore isn’t going to make the problem go away.

So we really need to critique the whole big thing of patriarchal religions and their morality systems, rather than what I sense is the world view on this thread - that most of society are now postmodern relativists and so a few people are suddenly saying modest like some kind of weird aberration. They really are not. Religion and absolute moral belief systems still exist.

Modest clothing had always been everywhere. I'm this weather I'd say I would be clad as extreme modest dresser. I am literally wrapped up from head to toe, it's freezing in our office. The reason it's such a buzzword now is that they are taking the enormous Muslim/ orthodox Jewish market. It's all about the marketing and money and less about the value judgement.

So we really need to critique the whole big thing of patriarchal religions and their morality systems, rather than what I sense is the world view on this thread - that most of society are now postmodern relativists and so a few people are suddenly saying modest like some kind of weird aberration. They really are not. Religion and absolute moral belief systems still exist. I agree with all of that, apart from I don't see that people on this thread are saying 'modest' is a weird aberration, but rather the sexism is now upfront for all too see and we're supposed to embrace it as a fashion option cos 'diversity', whereas it's usually more (hypocritically) underlying.

Sorry for the typos! It's late

Hasn’t sexism always been upfront for all to see?!

Endofthedays Not in terms of fashion marketing. When I think of styles such as 'boho' 'french girl style' etc, it's not marketed as protecting you from the male gaze and thus putting responsibility for your own potential rape onto you and what you are wearing (if we dig under the surface, this is really what 'modest' is about). Other styles tend to be sold in a more aspirational way, 'if you look like this, you will have this lifestyle'. Yes, of course you have to be thin and beautiful too etc and the whole fashion industry is of course very sexist, but this 'modest' term itself and what it represents is based in female oppression via religion.

The reason it's such a buzzword now is that they are taking the enormous Muslim/ orthodox Jewish market

This was my thought when I was faced with rack after rack of long sleeved buttoned up dresses and blouses and skirts so long I felt like I could sweep the streets.

I have never worn a long sleeved item of clothing in my adult life.

Hated wearing school shirts and cardigans

I am of an age where I know no one thinks I am worth marketing to (apart from trying to infer I might die soon) but now really feel like I don’t belong in shops anymore.

I hate shopping at the best of times but now my excuse is as well as being old I am probably not modest enough.

PlanDeRaccordement

Fashion for women is more diverse and inclusive with modest fashion as an accepted style among many styles. I would not like a world in which the only approved or accepted clothing for women were of one set ideal of femininity. To have the variety means that women who like showing more or less skin can all have options of fashionable clothes to choose from and still feel feminine

You have so missed the point I'm not sure where to begin. Do you really think that posters who object to the word "modest" would want to tell any woman how to dress? Far less to prescribe "one ideal of femininty"?

"Modest" is a loaded, judgemental term. It serves no purpose except for those who do want to police what women wear.