Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

[OhDear2200]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

The term "modest" is interesting. If you go back to the Victorian era, you'll see "modest" used in this exact way - to describe a woman who doesn't flaunt her attractiveness. But as far as I know, in this country that meaning more or less died out for a long time. If you'd asked me 10 years ago what was meant by a "modest" woman I'd have said someone who didn't show off or boast about her achievements. The sort of woman who would never mention that she had a first-class honours degree or had run the London marathon.

These days it seems to have reverted to meaning women who cover themselves up so as not to attract the male gaze. That's a backward step, in my view.

CeridwenTheWitch I think it's when I wear a sexy nightshirt that's seductively unbuttoned at the top..... with my big undies that are fraying at the edges and my fluffy knee high winter socks.

PlanDeRaccordement, I don’t know which school of critical thinking you studied at, but you should really ask for your money back.

It strikes me as a BLM argument. So, if we say these clothes are modest, then that is saying all other clothes are immodest. That is no different from those who argue if we say black lives matter, then all other lives do not matter. See?
If you're going to bring in identity politics, it would be worth noting that women are of lower status in society than men, so to jump to objecting to the term 'modest' being comparative to objecting to 'Black Lives Matter' is a massive contortion of the truth. To object to 'Black Lives Matter' by stating that 'All Lives Matter' is a way of distracting the focus from police brutality against African Americans by those who are either racist or think the movement has gone too far. To object to the label 'Modest', as members of the oppressed group ourselves, is to object to the sexist assumptions underlying the term, (which according to the dictionary definition only applies to women's clothing). The opposite of modest IS immodest. Religious influence on society does lead many cultures to categorise women as virgins or whores, binary opposites, based upon how they dress and look as much as how they behave. Your argument is completely twisted and nonsensical.

The label 'modest' is hideous with its implication that women who don't follow this fashion are 'immodest'.

Yes, exactly, Arnold.

Let’s no forget, it was just one short year ago that a man was acquitted of rape in Ireland because his victim had been wearing a thong with a lace front, which obviously meant she was begging for it.

The penalties for women who wear “immodest” clothing are still that severe.

Sorry. Obviously that should have read “alleged victim”. Wouldn’t want to suggest that “justice” went horribly awry on that occasion, would I?

Most of my clothes give me plenty of coverage. I manage to find them online by looking for long sleeves, midi (or longer) dresses etc. Hell will freeze over before I by anything marketed as "modest" though.
Looking at the dictionary definition of "modest" it buys into every single stereotype about women knowing their place and I want no part of it.
There must be a better word for clothes that offer stylish coverage. A word that doesn't imply that the other clothes are all immodest and the women who wear them are, well, what exactly?

A word that doesn't imply that the other clothes are all immodest and the women who wear them are, well, what exactly?

Lazy Tarts apparently

It's the name as opposed to the styles themselves I reckon.

If this is "modest" there's an implication that other clothing is "immodest" which is perjorative.

If it was called "looser clothing" or "fabric full" styles or something like that I don't think it would rankle as much.

Top tip, if you want cheap clothing that does the job of covering up, and has pockets and comfortable cuts try buying from the men's aisle

upfield, I guess so. Reading more of the thread has made me stop to think about the term.

I was sitting next to a male colleague at work recently and he twisted a certain way so that his button up shirt puckered and I saw his chest. I'd never seen that before and was surprised that it could happen with men's shirts. I've actually permanently stitched some of mine down from the 3rd button down to prevent this.

When I was young I loved mini skirts and mini dresses, midriff tops... and I must say much as the way I think now, I wasn't trying primarily to emphasise my body, it was just fun clothing. My desire to be able to run for the bus and pick up things I've dropped without showing my body off has come more with age, and the need to run and pick up the millions of things I drop nowadays.

So, what is a good term for women's clothing that isn't intending to emphasise our bodies and covers them in the way men's fashion does?

Top tip, if you want cheap clothing that does the job of covering up, and has pockets and comfortable cuts try buying from the men's aisle

I understand your point but, why can't we just have clothes designed for our bodies, clothes for women, that are also comfortable, in good quality natural fabrics and have pockets? Men's clothes are not cut to fit the female body. It's particularly difficult to find clothes anywhere that fit average to large boobs, something I just don't understand because loads of women have big boobs.

In sewing, all the patterns assume a B cup, so if you sew your own dress up for example, you have to do this thing called a Fuller Bust Adjustment. This always strikes me as strange since most women have breasts that are larger than a B cup.

Someone with good tailoring and designing skills could have a lucrative business in making women's clothing that fit properly, are comfortable and practical while still looking fashionable, especially if they don't assign loaded labels and stick to neutral descriptions - high neckline, low neckline, mid-length, fitted, loose etc.

CeridwenTheWitch An alternative clothing range popped into my head..

Lazy Tart

Bolshy Wench

Sporty Hag

does that mean all other clothes are then not sensible?

This is not comparable. Some clothes are more sensible than others. A cloth that soaks up water is not sensible if you are going to be out in the rain. Dark colours are not sensible if you are cycling at night. A baggy dress like the one featured is not sensible if your job involves bending and lifting.

Saying clothes are not sensible does not have the pejorative implications of saying they are immodest. There are occasions when non sensible clothes are fine. You can wear a three foot tall hat on your wedding day. It doesn't matter on such a specific occasion but day to day no one would think it sensible.

Modest fashion is just selling clothes to particular religious or cultural groups (like mine) who want fuller coverage in the clothes. Doesn’t mean women are immodest who don’t dress like that. Maybe just chill.

I hate the fact that it’s labelled as ‘modest’. I agree OP, the clothes aren’t the issue but the label is.

Some clothes are more sensible than others.

But be careful talking about 'women in sensible shoes' or everyone will think you're a dyke!

While, I'm on this thread, it bothers me that women's sporting outfits are often really showing off a lot of bum cheek. I always imagine myself in that situation and thinking I'm sure I'd wish I was wearing the shorts men wear. I'd hate to wear such a close fitting, up the bum tight pant! I imagine these women do have choices but it would be a big step forward to see a range of clothing in women's sport (where the women aren't from religious countries dictating what they can wear). As a pp said aboce, surely there must be something between full body coverage and arse-out.

An alternative clothing range popped into my head..

Lazy Tart

Bolshy Wench

Sporty Hag

😂

I only ever talk about men in sensible shoes. Mostly in realtion to snooker player Judd Trump as it has been a running joke for years in my house that he would never win the world title until he learned to wear sensible shoes.

This year he wore sensible shoes. He is now reigning world champion.

Such is the power of the sensible shoe.

Always interesting to dig about into who is making money from modest clothing, too.

I did like it when Normcore was having a moment a couple of years ago but that's another horribly problematic description, even if I did like the clothes.

Since when have floor length skirts been comfortable or practical?

When the temperature approaches 30C I crack out my maxi dresses, as they are far more comfortable at that temperature than my usual clothes (mainly leggings and tops). I'm not going to wear short skirts and strappy tops - I'd feel hideous and uncomfortable. Fine if that is your look, and fine for my daughters - just not for me. But at 30C I'm not going to be moving fast if I can help it anyway.

Modest fashion is just selling clothes to particular religious or cultural groups (like mine) who want fuller coverage in the clothes. Doesn’t mean women are immodest who don’t dress like that. Maybe just chill.
But it's not, this is being marketed as a fashion trend for all women, as the linked article shows. Whilst I respect your choice of clothes according to your faith, I feel it valid as a member of the same sex class to criticise the underlying sexism of modest clothing, as judgements regarding a woman's modesty and thus how she deserves to be treated persist, as the previous poster who mentioned the Irish rape case shows. It's something that affects all women.

If you take any notice of this fashion hogwash, it's all a bit stupid.
I have never ever thought that any of my clothes are unsuitable,I don't think about men when choosing,and wearing clothes. Men don't matter to me ! I might even wear my flimsy nightie when I go and have a wine at my local pub later !