Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

[OhDear2200]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

Feel free to present the case

Anything else you require your honour?

Are we in a courtroom?! It sure feels like it on this thread!

Sorry damn phone glitching

Making someone invisible and making them believe it is their choice is the ultimate power trip.

CeridwenTheWitch
You seem to have a problem with women 'overthinking' as much as Trewser, because heaven forbid women actually think about the sources of their own oppression and don't just roll over to anyone who cries 'intersectional' no matter the cost to women.
They also deliberately misinterpret what people say and then attack them for it.
If you can't elaborate on this then you're really just flinging s* around at those nasty, nasty women with opinions.

Because it is a power thing.

Very much so.

We know it isn't about the clothes themselves as we can clearly see that the clothes are no different to clothes that have been worn in the west for decades.

The label can only exist to extert power and say 'if you aren't wearing these specific unrevealing clothes' then you are immodest. Joggy bottoms and hoodies won't cut it, they are the 'wrong' sort of not revealing clothes.

I do think there is also an element of classism at play here as well.

You seem to have a problem with women 'overthinking' as much as Trewser, because heaven forbid women actually think about the sources of their own oppression and don't just roll over to anyone who cries 'intersectional' no matter the cost to women.

Nah, I just don't like bullies.

CeridwenTheWitch
How incredibly manipulative and misleading of you, what I actually wrote was
Feel free to present the case for modest clothing to be a feminist decision, I would actually be really interested to hear a different perspective.
An invitation out of willingness to hear another view which you have equated to a judge in a courtroom.
They also deliberately misinterpret what people say and then attack them for it.
Hypocrite, much?
You seem to be trying to shame us into a specific style of discussion that you deem suitably feminine, that they should all nod along politely and hold hands, no matter what is said and just shrug and say 'never mind', completely avoiding delving into any contentious issues. How insulting to women.

If you can't elaborate on this then you're really just flinging around at those nasty, nasty women with opinions.

I don't have to elaborate on anything. If you'd bothered to read the thread properly you'd see what I was referring to, I'm not going to repeat myself because some stranger on a forum demands I do.

Who appointed you judge and jury of this thread?

I do wonder why some posters are fighting so hard for “modest” not to mean what it patently obviously does. What’s behind it?

Me too. I really can't work out the agenda is of certain posters. No one has said long dresses/skirts etc , etc should not be worn but that doesn't seem to be enough. We have to accept the description "modest clothing"

Oliversmumsarmy
Why then, should Western women be made to wear revealing clothing, if they do not wish to do so? Why is it that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women

I don’t think I have ever been forced to wear revealing clothes

Same here Oliversmumsarmy The statement that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women is just so untrue.

Nah, I just don't like bullies.
You are the only ones bullying here, offering no discussion on the topics and simply popping up now and again to police our discussion, call us racists, and whatever other s* you think you can fling at us in order to try and shame us into silence.

You seem to be trying to shame us into a specific style of discussion that you deem suitably feminine

Who said anything about a discussion needing to be 'feminine?' I have no idea what a 'feminine' discussion would look like.

I do however know what a respectful discussion would look like, and it's not what has happened on this thread. Why do you assume I hold different standards for men as for women? If men were acting like you and a few other posters on this thread I'd feel exactly the same way. It is you who is making sexist assumptions here.

Why do you find it so hard to accept that not everyone agrees with you on this? You seem determined to bulldoze the thread so that no varying views are allowed, that we must all condemn this fashion style and be silenced if we so much raise an eyebrow.

You are the only ones bullying here, offering no discussion on the topics and simply popping up now and again to police our discussion, call us racists, and whatever other you think you can fling at us in order to try and shame us into silence.

Nice DARVO.

We know it isn't about the clothes themselves as we can clearly see that the clothes are no different to clothes that have been worn in the west for decades

Exactly- that is what made the original article a vacuous puff piece and and at the same time quite sinister. If you were shown the photos which accompanied it with no text or explanation and asked to comment you would say " quite nice**, but what am I being asked to comment on? There's nothing special here"

**Excepting Oliversmumsarmy who didn't like them.

The statement that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women is just so untrue.

Quite aside from the fact you would have to ignore various fashion trends over the years to make this arguement, you would also have to ignore the fact that many western women live in climates that make wearing revealing clothing actively dangerous.

Do western women in Quebec wear revealing clothing when it's 20 below? Norwegian women when negotiating knee deep snow?

It is quite obvious that clothing that covers you up has to be available in the west. That more revealing clothing is also available for those who wish it and occasions where it is appropriate does not restrict the availability of less revealing.

Why do you find it so hard to accept that not everyone agrees with you on this? You seem determined to bulldoze the thread so that no varying views are allowed, that we must all condemn this fashion style and be silenced if we so much raise an eyebrow.
I'm finding it hard to understand your mentality. You seem to equate me having an opinion to me dictating what other people's opinions should be. If I disagree, I disagree, and as this is a discussion forum, I'm discussing why. For the record, although I find it ridiculous that I even have to say this, I think anyone should be entitled to their own opinion. Do I think that the term 'modest' is a positive one for women's clothing in 2019? No, although I would consider of a alternative point of view if someone offered up a convincing argument, but as far as I am concerned no one has. Why do you think I should be the one to back down? Sorry, but you're not making any sense.

Perhaps one of the squabbling sides could avoid rising to any bait/trying to get last word in and the allow the discussion to go back to the question as to how much modest fashion ( as opposed to just normal every day modest , ie not look at me attention grabbing, clothing ) is a marketing ploy, a reflection of the intersectionality of women and religion, a tool used to hurt and disenfranchise women

Nice DARVO.
More bullying and trying to shame me into silence.

You are the only ones bullying here, offering no discussion on the topics and simply popping up now and again

I'm sure I'll be told I'm an insane troll with reading difficulties as Trews and Ceridwen have previously said this but I can't work out what point either of them is trying to make.

Plan's point seems to be (the demonstrably and patently untrue) position that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women. And that women should be grateful we can now buy "modest" clothing.

More bullying and trying to shame me into silence.

I cannot believe that you would now dare to play the victim, after bullying, attacking and bossing around multiple posters in this thread for so much as daring to have an opinion.

It has really been a revealing thread.

Midgebabe your point about "modest clothing" being a marketing ploy is worth discussing.

What bothers me, and other posters, is why is it that normal, everyday, run of the mill clothing is getting the tag "modest" attached to it?

ShonaAndTheWaterHorse I think Plan's point with that comment was to say that Western clothing forces women to wear 'immodest' clothing, and this is not feminist, presenting this as a 'gotcha' because she thinks that the position of women arguing here is that it is a feminist act to wear revealing clothing.

CeridwenTheWitch I'm neither a bully nor a victim, just a woman with an opinion, it's allowed.

It is most definitely a marketing ploy and I am interested to see Goosefoot's response to my views on the fashion industry generally, though I appreciate she is in North America so a response may take a while.

I don't personally feel the fashion industry actively chooses to sexualise women's bodies, more that they just don't care what the consequences of their labels are for women. In this case I see the push coming from religion and the industry just seeing an opportunity rather than it being driven by the fashion industry if that makes sense?

I guess the modest tag ties in with the religious aspect that the marketers are trying to reach. The link to religion is much more obvious if you search for modest Male fashion.

They probably didn't consider it could have wider implications. Wonder if it's therefore something that should be referred to the advertising standards people? Unintentional harm, but nevertheless implying that everyday clothing is immodest.

Midgebabe

I suspect there is also an element of 'easy win' going on. It is a way for the industry to signal their inclusive credentials without all the awkward bits like paying the women in the developing world who make the clothes a decent wage.

Arnoldwhats I hadn't thought about that. Is greater awareness actually hitting the fashion industries bottom line? I would have thought they would be more concerned with the growing second hand approach to fashion.