Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

[OhDear2200]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

What on earth are you talking about, Plan?? The French for modest is modeste, which has absolutely zero connection with modiste, a completely different word.

You don’t seem to have much connection with feminism, either, which makes me wonder what you’re doing on this board in the first place.

May I suggest you look more at modest fashion as a whole and not make assumptions based on the label

People have repeatedly explained that their issue is with the label not the clothes

I’m not sure why you haven’t grasped that PlanDeRaccordement

I object to the ideology behind 'modest' clothing. If the origin is sexist and you change the name, that doesn't stop the concept being sexist. Maybe 'rape apologist wear'?

Hear hear, Upfield.

I’m beginning to wonder why Plan is on this board too.

I think we can agree it’s not for the feminism.

Also, modest fashion has a lot of salwar kameez, tunic and trousers, and khaftan styles which were work wear for generations of peasants in these cultures. From cultures not exactly known for being hot on women's rights. Also, what BernardBlacksWineIceLolly said.

Erm, what's with the policing of other women's feminism? We're not all going to agree on everything. I agree with some of what Plan has said, and agree with what Upfield and others have said too. What's wrong with looking at this from both sides, listening to other points of view? It doesn't seem very feminist to tell other women they shouldn't be on the feminist board. Plan hasn't said anything wrong, she's just sharing her views on this subject which I've found interesting to read.

CeridwenTheWitch Different points of view are welcome, but repeating the same straw man arguments and not engaging with the actual critical points made by posters is a headfuck. For example, I told her pages back modest clothing doesn't stop one getting raped, then she said 'I disagree, modest clothing doesn't stop one getting raped' ?!?! She then demanded I defend clubbing outfits as a feminist statement, for no apparent reason. I'm sorry, but I think we're being very patient.

30to50FeralHogs
I think that Muslim women do have to choice to wear hijab it's their choice and their intentions and if they don't wear it there are other ways of modesty not just how you dress.

Yeah, stop telling posters they aren't feministing enough. It (and other aggressive posters) has made this interesting discussion into a really nasty thread.

What's wrong with looking at this from both sides, listening to other points of view?“
I have. I am confirmed in my view that there is no feminist argument for calling a style of clothing for women “modest”.

Well then you get into white feminism and whether muslim women can be feminists...

Nah. Plan was going round in circles (see Upfield’s example)

It’s OK to point that out

Well then you get into white feminism

Do me a favour

‘If 'modest' means 'humble, not drawing attention to oneself' then furiously signally how 'modest' one is is not the least bit modest.’

That would all make sense in a Western culture because modesty is connected mostly to the virtue of humility rather than the virtue of chastity, which is why it would make no sense traditionally in the West to call a heavily embellished item of clothing modest. Embellishment draws attention to the wearer.

But the clothing style being called modest here is sometimes heavily embellished, presumably because modesty in Islam has a different meaning - perhaps much more about not drawing attention to the body but drawing attention to the person is okay? I don’t know because I am not knowledgeable enough about morality in Islam.

I would consider in Catholic morality being a modest fashion influencer is an oxymoron, but that may not be the case in Islam, because it is a different religion with different beliefs.

I would consider in Catholic morality being a modest fashion influencer is an oxymoron, but that may not be the case in Islam, because it is a different religion with different beliefs.
Maybe. Or maybe it's fashion houses cashing in on the Muslim dollar. Maybe it's narcissistic Instagram culture, and Muslim women wanting to grab some of that attention whilst remaining 'good girls' in the eyes of their community. I've known a lot of hijabi women and know it's worn for all sorts of different reasons. One woman, who I wasn't particularly a fan of, was an American Muslim, who wore it to signal her superiority complex. It fitted in with her condescending character. She'd wear it so you could still see virtually all of her hair, which she would dye a bright colour, so it didn't actually serve the function of modesty anyway, and was more an assertion of identity. In a similar way, I've found a lot of Saudi women to have this superiority complex, towards both Muslim women from other countries and to non-Muslim women, as they consider theirs to be 'the kingdom of humanity' (!), the cradle of Islam. To be honest, they came across as incredibly shallow and far more capitalistic than you might imagine, obsessed with shopping and Western consumerism. And of course, displaying wealth. I imagine this is cultural as much as it is religious. I don't think Muslim women are any different to non-Muslim women in fact, and we can all fall foul of the narcissistic elements of capitalist culture.

PlanDeRaccordement
UPfield, I am asking everyone,, including you, who object to the label of modest, what should we call this style of clothes?

Clothes? Why do they need a label?

Or do you object to the clothes themselves and if so why?

This is at least the 3rd time you have used this straw man argument. Nobody has said this; several posters, including me, have said that what we wear could be described as "modest" except it is an offensive term we wouldn't use.

Why are you repeatedly using this straw man point?

Or clothes. Search terms long sleeves high necked loose fitting

Modest fashion was too about filling gaps in professional office wear for women that did not revolve around tight fitting blouses, short skirts and high heels. Their solutions are more practical as well as being elegant

I've worked in offices with formal dress codes since 1981. I have never once had to wear tight fitting blouses or short skirts and high heels

Shops in the UK had/ have loads of options for stylish, elegant office wear which coincidentally would fit the description "modest".

Trewser has gone on about such clothes not being "in fashion". The reality is there was a whole swathe of ranges such as Jaeger, Austin Reed, Alexon, Planet, Windsmoor, Country Casuals, Liz Claiborne selling the sort of elegant, stylish clothes which Trewser and Place think have only just been invented. The irony is that most of these brands no longer exist and their market place has been filled by Hobbs and Cos. There may be others but those are the brands I am familiar with.

"Modiste" is a noun which neither sounds like nor means the same as "modest"

A lot of Cos clothes actually fit the “modest” requirements perfectly.

No one is policing the board. No one has attempted to have anyone removed from the discussion. No one is saying there’s anything wrong with women wearing long skirts if they wish (just in case that straw man wanted to creep back in).

It’s just that on a Feminist board I have the right to point out that there’s actually nothing remotely feminist in someone waxing lyrical about wearing lovely feminine clothes that meet with the approval of men who wish to control women’s sexuality.

What next? What the well dressed FGM cutter is wearing this season? A woman is doing is so it must be feminist and empowering, right? Terrific!

Something is not feminist just because a woman does it.

Women can be feminists and still do i feminist things.

TalkingintheDark Hear, hear. The depth of the critical engagement appears to be ' Oh pweeease like modest fashion or you'll make me sad.'

I find it interesting that one of the supporters of "modest" style is also the poster who made the creepy comment about imagining what Kate Middleton looks like naked.

What did Bertrand say that merited a deletion?