Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

[OhDear2200]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

I’d be perfectly happy if the term modest were replaced with another, what I am against is eliminating the fashion style in its entirety because it is not a bad thing in and of itself

Why do you keep posting this straw man point about anyone wanting to eliminate this style- nobody has said anything of the kind. At least one poster has said her own way of dressing could happily be described as "modest" except she would as she said give "a big ole f*you" to anyone using the term.

And I'm sorry but the suggestion that until very recently it was impossible to buy clothes such as long sleeved dresses, long skirts, long sleeved tops , loose fitting trousers, loose fitting tunics, high - necked tops is just nonsense.

After all men decide what a whore should wear and look like, not women. It was all about advertising a woman’s body that is for sale. They want T&A on display, they want the crippling stilettos, they want the doll face makeup. And doing all that gives men more visual pleasure than taking the opposite approach and dressing in a glamourous but non whore fashion which states that your body is not for sale and is your own which you dress for your own pleasure not caring about the male gaze.
I don't particularly care enough about 'kinderwhore' fashion to defend it as a feminist statement, but I would say that it doesn't conform to the image of the 'whore' completely, it's more of a satirical statement, taking the ugliness of the 'whore' archetype and throwing it back in men's faces. 'Modest' fashion doesn't even attempt to criticise patriarchal hypocrisy, if it did there would be some similar form of satirical or ironic wearing of 'modest' garments involved. There isn't. It's a movement born from sexist, patriarchal, religious ideas about women, embraced by woke, virtue-signalling dipshits.

One of my posts has been deleted.
I can't remember what I said. I'm sure it wasn't offensive to anyone.

I must remember to screenshot.

“ The embrace of the term 'modest' by non-religious women is born from virtue-signalling how cool they are with Islam, and cultural relativism, which is bad for women, as it prohibits criticism of the sexist elements of different cultures.”

Actually, I think it’s more fundamental (no pun intended) and dangerous than that. I think it’s highlighting the fact that a significant number of women do think that women are responsible for male behaviour, and have a responsibility to police their own actions so as not to inflame their uncontrollable sexual needs. It is only in very recent times that that has ceased to be the general view. Like many other feminist advances, big and small, it is a very fragile victory, and can be lost in the blink of an eye.

BertrandRussell
Please can you support the statement that Muslim women could not find suitable clothes to wear to work before “modest fashion”?

Clothes which are now being described as "modest" have always existed. Professions such as law, accountancy or banking until quite recently have always required a formal dress code which, if you were of a mind to, could be described as "modest"

Yes they existed but they weren't in fashion.

Trewser
Yes they existed but they weren't in fashion

I literally have no idea what your point is. What does "in fashion" mean?

if it did there would be some similar form of satirical or ironic wearing of 'modest' garments involved

Why must there be satire or irony to qualify as feminist? An objective of conveying satire or irony is still dressing for the male gaze.
Point out to me the satire and irony in any clubbing outfit please.

Here is an article on how modest fashion has filled a gap in the market.
forward.com/life/427544/a-muslim-and-an-orthodox-jew-talk-modesty-and-feminism/

How modest fashion has gone from early days of women having to make their own clothes to being co-opted
www.nytimes.com/2019/10/15/style/what-does-modest-fashion-mean.html

I haven't read the whole thread but I have no problem with the word modest.
If others think it is too judgmental, then why not just say 'unrevealing' of 'conservative'.
It's not something I'd lose sleep over or want to overthink.

that trends of the 2010’s would be defined by modesty. It is, she declared, “the end of the naked look. The beginning of a new age of female pluri-empowerment’…as expressed through the kind of dress that prioritizes the individual and her needs over the clichés of female role play…The New York Timesbegan chronicling young women on the streets of Brooklyn layering clothes in creative ways that shielded or swaddled their bodies back in 2015. But it is only now reaching critical mass, thanks to a convergence of social, political and cultural factors as reflected in clothing.”

Again that is just nonsense. Apart from the very brief period in the 1960s when short skirts were the norm (and even then not for older women) it is simply not true that it has been impossible to buy non- revealing clothing.

www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccasuhrawardi/2018/11/15/its-the-age-of-modest-fashion-and-the-modist-is-leading-the-charge/

Good quote from this is about how modest fashion is a shift from male gaze to female gaze. Paraphrasing here. Women dressing to impress other women has never been about baring all, that is a function of the male gaze. The styles are about looking elegant and powerful, sexy on your own terms.

“ Why would knowing what someone else's body shape was make you uncomfortable?”
It’s them pesky “urges” again......

I should have been clearer.

I guess I can tell what Kate Middleton’s sort of body shape is when she’s in formal wear. That isn’t what I mean.

The Kim Kardaahian type of clothes, where I feel I know exactly what she’d look like naked, I’m less comfortable with.

A bit like board shorts versus speedos. To me, it’s about privacy as much as temptation, and it’s just as relevant to men as to women.

I have friends who dress more in the Kardashian kind of style and blokes in very tight skinny jeans. That’s their choice and I don’t judge them. But I’m more deliberate about where I look, I guess!

shona it's quite a well known phrase if you Google it its in the dictionary and everything

Prior to modest fashion being added, there were no clothes for women from Eastern countries, especially Muslim women

This is complete and utter nonsense.

I saw muslim women, and older girls, wearing long loose trousers, tunics etc growing up in the 80s. I went to school with them. I used to be jealous of them because they were allowed to wear trousers to school when the rest of us girls had to wear skirts. We even used that point to argue that the rest of us should be allowed to wear trousers.

I grew up in a village and went to high school in a small Scottish town. I am not from a big city.

This is just not true of the UK.

I can assure you that the modest fashion trend started on the catwalks to appeal to rich Muslim women who love fashion. Then it filtered down, as fashion does.

simply not true that it has been impossible to buy non- revealing clothing.

No one has said that. All that has been said is that there was a lack of choice for non revealing but feminine, glamorous/professional clothes.
It was Laura Ashley tea dresses in floral or very masculine.
It’s similar to maternity wear. While it was never impossible to find maternity clothes, there were decades where the choice was limited to hideous bulky shifts with bows and teddy bear prints. There were no maternity jeans. No shirts to show off your belly. No professional work wear. There were no nursing bras or clothing to help breastfeed in public without undressing to be half naked.

Trewser
shonait's quite a well known phraseif you Google it its in the dictionary and everything

I don't know what relevance "in fashion" is supposed to have. I mentioned the sort of formal, highly tailored clothes female accountants, solicitors and bankers wore and which is readily available at all prices from High Street to top of the range.

Arnold,
But in the eighties these women and girls would have had to buy their tunics and trousers abroad and import them or sew them from fabric. You could not buy them mainstream. Modest fashion are these clothes going mainstream so that they are as accessible and easy to buy as the usual western clothes.

Why must there be satire or irony to qualify as feminist? An objective of conveying satire or irony is still dressing for the male gaze.
Point out to me the satire and irony in any clubbing outfit please.
What the devil are you going on about? Satire or irony is not required to be a feminist, a critique of patriarchal structures IS. That's what 'modest' fashion is missing. I've no idea why you're bringing clubbing outfits into it, I haven't mentioned them anywhere.

Yes, they were not fashionable. Classic and well made, but dull and boring.

Did you literally not realise what it meant?

The Kim Kardaahian type of clothes, where I feel I know exactly what she’d look like naked, I’m less comfortable with.

The number of western women who dress like Kim Kardashian on a day to day basis is too small to be worth mentioning.

I see precisely nobody dressed in such a manner except on the occasional night out. It is ludicrous to suggest Kardashian is the norm.

Upfield, I am referring to your statement
Modest' fashion doesn't even attempt to criticise patriarchal hypocrisy, if it did there would be some similar form of satirical or ironic wearing of 'modest' garments involved.

Which implies to be feminist, a fashion must criticise patriarchy through satirical or ironic wearing. Care to explain now how a clubbing outfit is satirical or ironic criticism of the patriarchy but a modest outfit is not?

I know exactly what kate Middleton would look like naked a bicycle. I know in the same way i know what kim k would look like.