What do you think it actually means to be transgender?

[coatlessinspokane]

I really want to understand it, because I want to be fair to everyone. So putting aside the whole transgender in women's prisons/ sports (which I think is obviously unfair on women because of biological disadvantages) then what does actually being transgender mean?

Does it mean that you identify with the opposite sex so therefore you willingly take on the characteristics associated with that sex (ie. the gender) like wearing skirts, makeup, etc if you ID as female? Thus allowing you to feel that you belong to the other group.

Or does it just mean that you like wearing skirts, makeup etc in which case you've been duped into thinking that you need to ID as female because society has taught you that not only does gender exist but that it correlates completely with sex?

I suppose it's coming from a place where I think dresses, makeup, high-heels all that shit is a burden, a fucking stain on my life, yet I don' t ID as male. Isn't "gender" just another way of saying "personality" which is basically a scattergraph of personalities with such loose correlations to sex (or at least they would be if pesky social influences just fucked off) that it barely has no meaning anyway.

I feel conflumped by the whole thing and fear that I may never understand it. Not that it affects how we should treat people (nicely) but I'd like to understand what it really means.

It seems like Stonewall is using the term trans to describe anyone who doesn't follow ultra stereotypical dress codes and haircuts. Butch women are trans? It's not very progressive to suggest that we (as a society) need to embrace people of all persuasions/identities and at the same time have a tiny little box where biological women can be just women. Maybe I'm not explaining it very well, but it's like they're saying if you're born female and you don't like fashion and makeup you're probably trans. Or if you were born male and don't watch footie while drinking lager you're trans.

Are they trying to desperately cram as many people as possible under that umbrella?

OP - I don't know, but I've been grappling with the same issues. So - one thing that comes up a lot in social media posts from transwomen is a desire to "pass." "Do I pass in this wig", "do I pass in these jeans" - that kind of thing.

At first look, it seems obvious as to why the question is being raised. It must be far easier to go about life as a transwoman if you "pass." But once you start to unpick the argument, it makes less sense.

You can only define what "pass" means if you define what a typical "woman" looks like. Which isn't the same thing as having long hair and a liking for heels. There isn't a typical woman. So by that reasoning, what are trans women aiming towards when they aim to "pass"? The ability to use a women's changing room or loo or whatever without being challenged? Or the ability to conform to some notion of what a "female" should look like? Both?

Taking that argument further - if being a woman is such a broad spectrum, and can include people with a penis, why is that spectrum also not broad enough to include people in baggy jeans, no makeup and short hair? Or is being a woman about outward appearances rather than biology?

Pass means pass as a female doesn't it? The very concept acknowledges that sex does exist and trans people aren't actually the thing they're trying to "pass" as. Desire to pass is understandable to reduce the dissonance when your head-story says one sex and your reality is the other.

But it also pushes into validation territory when people are determined to get others to confirm their identity story, either by stealth if they pass, or by appealing to kindness, intimidation or ultimately force. The validation thing feels unhealthy to me. Be who you are. Other people will perceive you the way they perceive you. Most cases they won't give a damn whether you're male or female anyway, unless you're trying to push into places you shouldn't be because of necessary sex segregation.

Why does understanding matter to you one way or the other?

A whole bunch of male people are identifying into our legally protected sex class and children are being medically experimented on.

We deserve an explanation.

To put it another way 'I am not the enemy ... I am an ally'

No, you're not. Transsexuals are not women's allies.

TS have their own agenda and it's time they stood up for it honestly without coat-tailing on the work women are doing to protect our own rights. There may be some specific issues where an alliance (not allyship) could possibly be productive, depending on the context. But you first need to do your own thing as a movement and clearly set out your own agenda. Only then can we decide what sort of strategic alliances on specific issues might be mutually beneficial and only then can each of us decide where we draw our personal boundaries.

I wish you luck forming a movement, I know several previous attempts have ended badly. This isn't women's problem though, we have enough on our plates. Maybe talk to each other more instead of us. Maybe talk to the TRAs about your huge areas of disagreement with them.

In the meantime, please drop the forced teaming because it comes across as creepy. You aren't going to slip that 10% through unnoticed.

And if we 'welcome' you 'on the barricades' we exclude lots of women who are trans widows, children of trans or other affected family members. And they are women and that is who we are fighting for. So that's not happening.

Look at Buck Angel as an example. Buck is currently public enemy number one in online trans world

That article is dreadful.

Dreadful how? In terms of how transsexual people are being cancelled? Or in how it’s reported?

I thought the article was pretty fair - they contacted and quoted Buck, got the opposite view from a trans writer (Ana Valens) and contacted Wynn for comment who didn’t respond. The person taking the opposite view denounced the twitter shaming/pile ons.

I personally didn’t let myself even look at the trans rights/women’s rights conflict for ages, because I know trans people who I care about and didn’t want to hurt them. It was only when I realised current trans ideology was actually attacking the kind of trans people I knew (now referred to as ‘transmedicalists’ or ‘truscum’) that I started to engage with the whole debate and realised how ducking batshit/dangerous it actually is.
I think the article does a reasonable job of explaining the rift between what most normies think of as trans people (Buck Angel) and current trans ideology. Plus it’s an actual established source (not a blog or a reddit post) albeit a gossipy/trashy one. I doubt that any serious news sources care much about you tubers* with less than a million subscribers.

*whereas I, stepmother of a gender questioning teen, like to keep a close eye on what she is consuming.

I remember as young as 5 feeling that my body wasn't right in some way. I did Ballet to a high level and was always told what a wonderful dancer I was, but I needed to lose weight. I have never been overweight, but I am not built like a dancer and I am very short.
I am now 46 and I have spent the majority of my life feeling trapped in the wrong body. When I look in the mirror I see fat. It's destroyed my health and many relationships.
I am 5 foot one, 7.5 stone and wear size 6 clothes. I am not fat. But I THINK I am. So I starve myself, take pills, whatever I can to be thin.
Imagine if I had gone to a Dr and told them I needed to be 3 stone lighter (my goal is to be 5 stone) - and now imagine the Dr telling me that it's ok, I will do you a gastric bypass and give you amphetamines to lose all that weight and you will be 5 stone.
In fact I was told I have extreme body dysmorphia and was sent to a psychiatrist. Rightly so.
I still struggle but I accept that it's a mental disorder and I have to learn to live with feeling trapped in the wrong body.

Just a little side note... How on earth does a man KNOW how it feels to be a woman? I am a woman and I don't KNOW how it feels, I just am.... I also don't know how it feels to be 5 stone.

I thought the article was dreadful from the POV of how much abuse Buck had received.

Being told you aren’t the right shape to be a dancer as a child definitely messes with your head (even when it’s true).
I can definitely see how being told only boys do that/only girls like that (or simply getting those messages from a very gendered society) would fuck a kid up/groom them into believing it.

(My ballet teacher said similar to my mum when I was about 8.
I still dance (and teach) in my 40s though, just not ballet. Fuck that.)

Right, but my point was that not feeling "right" in your body doesn't mean you should be encouraged to take drastic measures to change it into something it can never be. I am never going to be 6 foot tall, however much I believe I should be.

NeurotrashWarrior
I thought the article was dreadful from the POV of how much abuse Buck had received

Well exactly.

Buck Angel has always seemed to me to be a reasonable person, inasmuch as someone in his situation can be. For him to be pilloried and abused by what should be his own community is shocking.
"Truscum" is horrendous

So EVERYONE who ever does ANYTHING not traditionally associated with their sex is transgender?

So if I’m topping up the oil in the car and DH is ironing, we’re both transgender?

Free, there's a film by Blaire White about "trans kids" which includes some interviews from the uk and also a very worrying one where a trans woman is telling a child that as she likes to run around crazy, like a boy, she's transgender.

So yes, according to some.

And that's offensive to everyone, including trans people frankly.

Well exactly

Phew, just checking! I sometimes get FWR poster-paranoia!

So if I’m topping up the oil in the car and DH is ironing, we’re both transgender?

My DH does the cooking and I do the DIY. Asked stepdaughter if this made us non-binary? 😬

A well known activist's evidence to court in Canada recently included that they had known they were a girl from childhood because they (trying to remember the exact words quoted) pranced around the house, and were a little diva. That honestly was considered the strongest relevant information available to share with a judge.

Would add on reflection: I believe this activist transitioned in adulthood and their mother was present at the case in support, so presumably the activist was loved and accepted at home in both prancing and being a diva as a boy at the time, and it was accepted that boys could both diva and prance without anyone believing this made the activist a girl.

Its honestly hard to make any logical sense of.

But they menstruate! (So they say).

@DuMondeB

*So if I’m topping up the oil in the car and DH is ironing, we’re both transgender?

My DH does the cooking and I do the DIY. Asked stepdaughter if this made us non-binary? 😬*

😹😹😹

I spoke to my BIL at the weekend - my sis was up in the fields fixing the electric fences and he was about to make some jam. Strange days indeed.

Fekko, I think you mean the gender non-specific spouse of your non-binary sibling?

HTH

😂

Am we say ‘spouse’? Doesn’t that imply some kind of possession?