What do you think it actually means to be transgender?

[coatlessinspokane]

I really want to understand it, because I want to be fair to everyone. So putting aside the whole transgender in women's prisons/ sports (which I think is obviously unfair on women because of biological disadvantages) then what does actually being transgender mean?

Does it mean that you identify with the opposite sex so therefore you willingly take on the characteristics associated with that sex (ie. the gender) like wearing skirts, makeup, etc if you ID as female? Thus allowing you to feel that you belong to the other group.

Or does it just mean that you like wearing skirts, makeup etc in which case you've been duped into thinking that you need to ID as female because society has taught you that not only does gender exist but that it correlates completely with sex?

I suppose it's coming from a place where I think dresses, makeup, high-heels all that shit is a burden, a fucking stain on my life, yet I don' t ID as male. Isn't "gender" just another way of saying "personality" which is basically a scattergraph of personalities with such loose correlations to sex (or at least they would be if pesky social influences just fucked off) that it barely has no meaning anyway.

I feel conflumped by the whole thing and fear that I may never understand it. Not that it affects how we should treat people (nicely) but I'd like to understand what it really means.

This was an interesting watch the other day:

www.dailymotion.com/video/x7nlpww?fbclid=IwAR3ghORgTUxpJ9DeWZ9sw_2EOBfz08wbP7d034jBkRvBM8IwtLIXVAROHt8

If I have any gender, it's male or none binary

It's pretty irrelevent however. What matters is real life is my biological sex which is pretty bloody obvious.

Honestly? I don't think it means ANYTHING. It's like those obscure metaphysical debates theologians got all worked up about in medieval times. How many angels cam dance on the head of a pin, did Mary conceive through her ear.
It's debating fairy tales.

There is no character trait that's innately male or female

But surely there are things that are “bio-social” in that certain socializations (eg. men being encouraged to be more aggressive) are universal because of the biological fact that men are physically stronger than women therefore have more opportunity to be aggressive.

Sorry I’m derailing my own thread.

Those traits aren't innate, and they're not 'universal' - some men will be less aggressive than a few women, and the degree of aggressiveness encouraged/allowed is heavily dependent on the prevailing culture.

Tbh, I really don't care any more. The only thing I have time and energy for is standing up for what biologically female people need to not be an oppressed class with an unfair and disproportionate (and usually unrecognised) burden compared to people born with a penis.

That's a daily battle at the moment, so everyone else is going to have to sort their own problems out.

And basing it as a reason to 'change sex' wrong; we should be accepting of and applauding of men and women who are the opposite of those stereotypes.

In children I am certain that the direction is liking girl stuff-> knowing everyone thinks this is girl stuff -> thinking you must be a girl.

medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

some men will be less aggressive than a few women

Right. So not an absolute but a tendency nonetheless.

Yes to culture of course. It’s obvious that male aggression and street abuse can decline in certain cultures but there is often a backlash in those places and a secret hankering is often felt for the past when men were “allowed to be men” and didn’t have to pussyfoot around all this politically correct snowflakery of being nice to each other.

It means you believe certain personality traits and fashion choices are innate to a particular sex, and anyone who contravenes these god-given rules is unique, different, special, brave and stunning.

I would distinguish this from being transexual where you truly feel you are the opposite sex.

I agree with Katie, I also think this explains why mostly it's male trans identifying children and mostly female trans identifying teens.

It's generally ok to be a 'Tom boy' till your teens but not ok to be a young boy into dresses etc. Although it's becoming increasingly 'ok' through drag, but again it's extremely extreme stereotyping and worrying for other reasons...

This is only generalisation however. There's a number of cases where other issues come into play, as well as CSA.

The whole thing is extremely complex.

The trans right movement has evolved so fast that I don' think even the activists themselves would be able to come to any consensus on a precise definition of trans, beyond "trans is anyone who identifies as trans".

Indeed I suspect that many of the activists would dismiss the idea that trans should be defined by any precise characteristics as "essentialist".

...A precise definition of trans, beyond "trans is anyone who identifies as trans".

That would be "trans is anyone who identifies as trans. ....Not that one!!!"

HoooBoy ...

One of these days (when I think my self-esteem could stand up to the battering) I'll do an AMA ...

In the meantime

I'd really like to understand why perfectly sane rational intelligent women can believe (as some clearly do - and no op, I'm not digging at you, rather, way too many people do think it) that 'Transgenderism' (whatever the fuck that word means) is all about

wearing skirts, makeup, etc

Irrelevant but necessary (Honest?) Declaration

I am Trans - post op - happy in my own skin - living an honest and meaningful life.

So let me ask you (without trying to be an arse)

Why does understanding matter to you one way or the other?

(before I get stamped on by people 'educating' me about womens rights and women's spaces and male privilege and ... and ... and ...

Don't bother, not least because I agree on 90% of all of those issues and can see an agreed compromise on the other 10%

To put it another way 'I am not the enemy ... I am an ally')

Dresses ?
Don't own a single one

Skirts ?
Own three ... almost never wear (Gawd knows why I bought 'em, cos I don't)

Heels ?
A hell to me is anything over 1/2 inch (I noticed that typo before posting ... but it seemed to fit so ... sic)
(anything over an inch ... I'll put me back out )

Make up ?
Honestly? cannot be arsed (and I say that as someone who bears a striking resemblance to the 'back end of a bus')
I try sometimes but just cba.

So where does it all come from ?

Truthfully? I don't know (There are many and varied theories - overbearing mother - absent / weak father - hormonal wash in the womb - straightforward mental illness ... and the list goes on and on and on ...)

might they be right ? dunno ... maybe ... or maybe a load of grade A BS

Thing is ... I dont care cos I am currently

post op - happy in my own skin - living an honest and meaningful life

that's enough of an explanation for me

I'm told the universe is 13.2 billion years old -13,200,000,000 - If I'm lucky I get to exist for 80 years, and that is no more more than a snap of the fingers in the life of the universe.

So, I think I have a responsibility to myself to live an authentic life (I arrived at that view after many wasted years of self-loathing)

You dont need to understand it in order to be fair. you just need to be fair ...
(Men in womens spaces ? nah ... I dont want them there any more than you do. Thing is, I dont -for the most part- go there myself cos I understand that 'some' women will be discomfited by my presence, so, no swimming baths or gyms etc for me.)

Dont worry about being conflumped (fabulous word!), understanding isn't necessary, A degree of tolerance will do for me.

And, since I'm (foolishly? unwisely?) posting this, I agree with self-id but do not agree (or anything close to agree) that self-id should be all that is required to access single sex spaces, that would have previously been denied.

(Hmmm, that last para is a bit clumsy but I know what I mean )

Having said all that, Thanks for trying to understand (it really isn't necessary) and please, keep trying to be fair

'Gender is the expression of someone else’s sexuality' according to Andrea Long Chu in her new book "Females." Read this interview it goes from bad to worse.
newrepublic.com/amp/article/155614/female-now?__twitter_impression=true

I agree with self-id but do not agree (or anything close to agree) that self-id should be all that is required to access single sex spaces, that would have previously been denied...(Hmmm, that last para is a bit clumsy but I know what I mean.

It's not clumsy it is nonsensical.

Can we write and enforce policies based on you knowing what you mean but being unable to explain it?

please, keep trying to be fair

How are policies based on one person's understanding but inability to explain it themselves, fair to all the other people in the world that that inexplicable policy affects? No doubt that is inexplicable also?

Words mean things. If you cannot explain them then...

So, I think I have a responsibility to myself to live an authentic life (I arrived at that view after many wasted years of self-loathing)

I guess it would be interesting to know what it is you're actually doing now that lets you live your authentic life that you weren't doing before? If it's not how you dress and present yourself to the world, then what is it?

Joolz, no I don't believe those things in someone who has really struggled and then made the huge decision to transition as an adult.

Unfortunately, many do and it's being fed to kids. Who are confused. One day I'll post a photo of the astonishing 'map of trans' new scientist has in their book about being human. It's mind boggling.

Everyone is an individual and there's unlikely to be one reason why someone feels they must transition. Thank you for your POV. you're right, it doesn't really matter, except that if women and girls, who get shitted on by males, are being forced to accept that men and boys can also 'be women and girls' we have a right to try to understand the shit show.

It's not personal. And you undoubtedly hate the stereotyping as much as we do.

As I said, seven hex explain her POV well, and doesn't wear dresses. Not uses female toilets afaik.

sevenhex.com/

worry about being conflumped (fabulous word!), understanding isn't necessary, A degree of tolerance will do for me.

Good words to live by. I will always be tolerant of ideas I don’t understand until they become intolerant of me.

Vis-a-vis the sexed brain and behaviour. I suspect that the effects of testosterone on the brain may cause behavioural changes in the general form of increased confidence, and perhaps aggression.

It is interesting that according to the 2012 Swedish study, MtF transitioners retained male patterns of criminal offending, whereas FTM had increased offending.

So that may not be an obvious brain difference, but it would cause genuine differences in M & F behaviour in line with sex. Though of course, like most other secondary M & F differences, there is a large overlap

Actually, Juno Roche's latest assertion that they're "just trans" is probably the best approach. Juno at least states they felt not more "like a woman" post op than they had "like a man" pre op.

If Juno is happier as such, fine.

We do need to understand all of it though, as kids and responsible adults are making mistakes and if even one of us are able to understand enough to help a child (or adult) recognise the difference between gender non conformity, sexuality and physically changing sex, it's worth the effort.

This isn't about individuals. This isn't about you Joolz, though your POV is actually very helpful. This is about the wider, bigger picture.

And I do see some of the trans stuff as appropriation of the female sex. And so yes, I try to unravel it.

I guess it would be interesting to know what it is you're actually doing now that lets you live your authentic life that you weren't doing before? If it's not how you dress and present yourself to the world, then what is it?

Yes that is the million dollar question isn’t it? And it’s hard for people who aren’t affected by gender dysphoria to understand what it really feels like.

Especially when as feminists we often feel that these pressures of gender performance have been dumped on us and aren’t particularly aspirational.

But I’d like to understand it because you know truth and all that.

I will always be tolerant of ideas I don’t understand until they become intolerant of me

Which is why women are rising.