What do you think it actually means to be transgender?

[coatlessinspokane]

I really want to understand it, because I want to be fair to everyone. So putting aside the whole transgender in women's prisons/ sports (which I think is obviously unfair on women because of biological disadvantages) then what does actually being transgender mean?

Does it mean that you identify with the opposite sex so therefore you willingly take on the characteristics associated with that sex (ie. the gender) like wearing skirts, makeup, etc if you ID as female? Thus allowing you to feel that you belong to the other group.

Or does it just mean that you like wearing skirts, makeup etc in which case you've been duped into thinking that you need to ID as female because society has taught you that not only does gender exist but that it correlates completely with sex?

I suppose it's coming from a place where I think dresses, makeup, high-heels all that shit is a burden, a fucking stain on my life, yet I don' t ID as male. Isn't "gender" just another way of saying "personality" which is basically a scattergraph of personalities with such loose correlations to sex (or at least they would be if pesky social influences just fucked off) that it barely has no meaning anyway.

I feel conflumped by the whole thing and fear that I may never understand it. Not that it affects how we should treat people (nicely) but I'd like to understand what it really means.

For many, it seems to be an excuse to take their previously private sexual fetish out of the bedroom closet and to co-opt unwitting members of the public into accepting this.

I think we are all affected by gender dysphoria...

Every time a child is told no you can't do that/wear that, that's for boys/girls. Every time a woman finds out her male counterpart is paid more. Every time you think "I wish I could just wear a suit instead of having to work out what is appropriate an appropriate outfit for smart-casual". You can't cry, you're a man. Etc. Isn't that all gender dysphoria?

that 'Transgenderism' (whatever the fuck that word means) is all about

wearing skirts, makeup, etc

Because whenever we hear about a 'trans child' in the media, that is what it is all about.

But if you're willing to answer one question, could you explain how you believe 'living as a woman' is different from 'living as a man''?

Yes Harriet that is an excellent point.

In fact it’s so excellent I think I might steal it and use it at the next trans-related discussion down the pub.

We are all affected by gender I would say.

Seven's description of gender dysphoria is much deeper and more challenging however, harrowing in fact. So I'd suggest be careful not to dismiss how difficult it can be for some. Erin Brewer describes her dysphoria as very crippling, especially as she feels it was mostly triggered by a sexual assault she suffered as a child, (her brother was not assaulted as he was Male) but is at pains to add that transitioning isn't always the only 'treatment.'

Wrt "we are all affected by gender dysphoria..."

The term 'transgender' is utterly useless as far as I can tell beyond being a means for some of the most privileged members of society to throw their weight around and harass those less fortunate than themselves.

Like Fekko I am from a time where the terms transsexual and transvestite were used and had distinct meanings which are of clear descriptive use. I know what I am dealing with when people describe themselves with these terms while transgender can mean anything from 'child groomed into a lifetime of medicalization and sterility by homophobic parents' to 'obviously male human being who wears rainbow willies occasionally and likes to abuse women online'. I'm failing to see how such a broad term serves any useful purpose.

Ooops that should be rainbow wellies not willies.

Great vowel slip Arnold!

Okkkkay ...

(Having read back my original reply I have decided that the word 'I' appeared waaaay too many times.)

And, since I'm (foolishly? unwisely?) posting this, I agree with self-id but do not agree (or anything close to agree) that self-id should be all that is required to access single sex spaces, that would have previously been denied.

How about ...

When I transitioned (Damn, that 'I' word again) it was a requirement that in order to access services thru the nhs I had to (even if only tacitly on occasion) agree that I was mentally ill.

Wasn't mentally ill then, nor now.

Self-id does away with the need to agree this.

And in my opinion (for what it is worth) that is all that self-id is useful for. It should not be used in any other area than the accessing of required medical services.

The fact that it is being used (abused) to permit all kinds of people to access services / places etc that they have no business accessing is wrong, and should be called out LOUDLY.

And if I'm welcome on the barricades for that, I would happily be there.

(Whether post-op transwomen should be able to access those spaces is an argument for another time & another thread - cos tisn't my thread- don't want to derail this one.)

I know what I mean - but I don't always have the words to adequately express myself. I 'usually' find that honesty on this point helps ...

But if you do not have, let's say mental distress rather than mental illness, why do you need the medical services?
Why should doctors agree to provide them?

I think it's the word identify/ identity that's the issue though.

As far as I can tell the gender recognition act was badly constructed for all.

And to be very fair joolz ,say I as much as you wish (it's your experience) you're engaging in debate rather than abuse and put downs, which is always positive

The debate must include the wider ideological issues as these are what women are protesting.

This is an excellent article that explains how several different clinically observed phenomenon have been lumped under a single ‘transgender umbrella’

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

There are other socially observed phenomenon under the big brolly too. There are big fractures between the groups at present, which echo the attempts to self define and ‘forced teaming’ that we’ve been seeing between women and (male born) trans people who describe a femme/feminine/female gender identity.

Examples

Gay men performing in drag (under the umbrella) is sometimes described as ‘trans face’ (the way women have described male born trans people as performing ‘woman face’)

Non binary people claiming to be just as trans as transsexual people (transsexuals being those who have considered their transness to be a medical issue, fixed through cross sex hormone therapy and surgery - this is also known as ‘transmedicalism) this echos the phenomenon of Male-born transwomen claiming you be just as female as biological women.

Transsexuals being told their self description is ‘exclusive’ or ‘outdated’ the way women have been told not to self describe as ‘natal’ or ‘biological’ women, but instead to use the descriptor ‘cis’

People who have ‘fully transitioned’ (ie those who have had all medical interventions available and completed their legal paperwork) now taking on the ‘cis’ descriptor. See India Willoughby as the most well known example, but I’ve seen it on trans Reddit too.

Basically, it’s impossible to properly define ‘transgender’ because the language keeps shifting.

You can’t make decent law (law that protects sex based rights AND prevents trans people from experiencing discrimination) using unfixed terms.

Joolz, while your position seems reasonable to me, in modern trans circles it will get you called a transmedicalist and a transphobe!

Look at Buck Angel as an example. Buck is currently public enemy number one in online trans world:

www.newsweek.com/youtuber-contrapoints-attacked-after-including-controversial-buck-angel-video-1466757

Also, it become extremely complicated with regards to children.

Children cannot self id and expect medical treatment. They have to be "diagnosed" to access any sort of support and that support is needed in order to clarify what's going on.

Trans ideology campaigns for the medicalisation if children. If there's no illness, what's being medicalised?

Read the times article today and it's clear how lack of rigorous medical gatekeeping leads to horrendous mistakes.

"What it means to be transgender" needs to be tighter and medically defined to avoid serious mistakes.

Men in womens spaces ? nah ... I dont want them there any more than you do. Thing is, I dont -for the most part- go there myself cos I understand that 'some' women will be discomfited by my presence, so, no swimming baths or gyms etc for me

If all transitioned people felt this way then we wouldn’t have a problem.

But the ‘trans women are women’ mantra means male born and bodied people in women’s sports categories and self IDing into being women’s political representation. That’s the bit that gets me. I’m all for making sure everyone, including minorities is represented in parliament, but all-women shortlists were designed to get the female experience represented in political decision making. In an ideal world, both Male-born and female-born transpeople (along with homosexual male and female people and people of all kinds of BAME backgrounds) would be proportionally represented in parliament, but the male ones shouldn’t get there on an all -women short list - they should take the spots currently occupied by the men in grey suits, fuck knows we’ve all had enough of those.

In my utopia, no child would ever feel like they're "wrong" in any shape or form.

Mine too, NTWarrior ❤️

Joolz...would you like to be able to go swimming and such? I don't think it's fair that there are things you can't do that could perhaps be easily fixed

Agree. Third spaces for changing and toileting and a combination of single sex and mixed sex sports teams and exercise sessions allow everyone to participate.

It might seem daunting but look at how much the campaign for accessible toilets achieved.

Seven's description of gender dysphoria is much deeper and more challenging however, harrowing in fact. So I'd suggest be careful not to dismiss how difficult it can be for some. Erin Brewer describes her dysphoria as very crippling, especially as she feels it was mostly triggered by a sexual assault she suffered as a child, (her brother was not assaulted as he was Male) but is at pains to add that transitioning isn't always the only 'treatment.'

I will need to read more but I draw a line between what I consider "gender dysphoria" and "sex dysphoria" and wonder if the two you have mentioned would fall more into the sex dysphoric camp.

Yes I would agree that it's sex dyphoria.

Which is a useful word as then it shines more of a light on what exactly 'gender dyphoria is...' or isn't.