What makes a woman a woman?

[FierceMamaBear]

Please discuss.
What makes a woman a woman?
What makes a man a man?

Is a girl who plays football any less of a girl?
Is a boy who plays princesses any less of a boy?
Is a woman who likes a pint at the pub less of a woman?
Is a man who drinks wine in a bubbly bath less of a man?

Is not the suggestion of feeling like a man/woman/boy/girl horrifically outdated and sexist? I felt like society was moving towards accepting of boys playing with fairies and girls playing with trucks, but now it seems very much against that.

Why is that literal human biology is being challenged and not gender stereotypes?

Am I the only one who finds cis offensive? I'm not a cis woman, I'm a woman. I find the term offensive. Women have been suppressed throughout history and to the present day. Women have worked hard to make woman a strong empowering word. I loved the always throw it like a girl campaign. Although, of course, no longer buy always.

Would love a discussion, my OH refuses to talk about it and all he'll say is their brain waves dont match up to their body

It seems quite breathtaking the speed at which gender has taken precedence over sex in what it means to be a woman, although I have only joined the no debate relatively recently.

If they want to get into an in-depth discussion about DSD, I agree a separate thread is appropriate. A lot of people have said biology, XX is what makes you a woman. In nearly every instance this is true, I also believe a non-functioning Y chromosome makes you a woman.

@TheShoesa I'm glad I'm not the only one! I'll watch the video once smalls are in bed and will be back with a comment on it!

@TheShoesa It is insane the speed it's progressed. In a blink of an eye, biology is being eradicated and what it means to be a woman is stripped from us. We're not even women, we're cis women apparently. Many women are only just beginning to speak up, and often with caution and fear. The priority should've always been banning boys/girls toys etc, teaching in schools boys and girls can have whatever tastes and personalities they are. Ensuring children know this and ensure they know there are not conditions to them keeping their biology, it's with them. To me it's very clear gender stereotypes (which apparently no longer exists and is just gender) causes trauma.

Without getting into the sport argument, there’s been many a thread on here where Caster Semenya has been brought into the trans argument.

Many posters are insistent CS is male. Even using “him” and “he” in the discussion. Male chromosome = man.

Which is why I do think the DSD is somewhat relevant. I just wanted to clarify that there exceptions to the binary and we should not include them in the gender cis/trans definition.

Whenever I hear 'cis women' mentioned, it always seems to be with a sneer, like 'cis women' are simultaneously elitist and inferior.

Of course we don't need 'cis'. There's no such thing as a male woman. There are women and men, and men who identify as women, and women who identify as men.

CIS has nothing to do with DSD, or trans. Discrete categories actually.

Disorders, genetically are not the same as the gender/sex debate.

CIS is not something women are.

My XX chromosomes.

Women have XX chromosomes and men have XY.

Anything else i.e I feel like a women, i wear a dress, I like mechanics etc, is just how you express yourself and your preferences in life.

A woman is a person with female body parts who has to go through things like periods and childbirth (although of course women who can't or don't have children are no less of a woman). But I refuse to think that a man who identifies as a woman who hasn't had to go through periods or anything that we do have to, is a woman. He is a man that has decided to dress as a woman and might feel like one - fine. But not a woman. I agree with the term cis woman, I don't want to be labelled l even if they choose to be labelled. I am a woman and happy to be.

I am definitely worried about women's rights and opportunities being suppressed by the transgender movement. Such as recently a transgender 'woman' won the medal for a woman's race ... sorry but that's not fair and it's trampling over the women who work so hard 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Just watched the JHB clip and was very impressed with her!

I had a transgender training at work recently and I very early in brought up the question of well, what is gender? Dsd/intersex was very quickly bought into the discussion and not wanting to be sacked/am a massive wimp and couldn't articulate what I really wanted to say meant I just had to walk out.

Polite email to the person delivering apologising for my abrupt departure, saying I felt uncomfortable with the subject matter, polite email back asking what could be changed... I know she'd take it on board without judgement, I'd hope so anyway, but I did feel silenced. Like I knew the implications of me saying what needed to be said.

Very outing. Doubt any of the folk at the meeting are on MN but very outing all the same.

What makes a woman a woman
A vagina

What makes a man a man
A penis

That's it really. Women have vaginas. Men have penises. That's how it has always been and will always be. Basic biology really.

@LittleWingSoul It's odd it was bought up in training, it isn't the same thing as being transgender at all. I imagine those with DSD would find that suggestion rather insulting.

I wonder if it's bought up to add some sort of scientific credibility to the trans ideology, oh look these people are XY but women. They're missing out this a biological reality and the Y chromosome is non-functioning. It is something that actually happens, it's scientific and proven. Trans is not a biological reality. I can't think of any other reason it'd be bought up and I think bringing it up is insulting and offensive, I don't have DSD, but in general in regards to everything I find comparing reality to ideology a bit ridiculous.

@lovesT I've met a few men that'd have no problem with being a big fish in a small pond.

@TheShoesa I've just watched that video and I love her!its interesting numbers have doubled of those claiming to be women, but not surprising.

@NotTerfNorCis I really feel the terms male woman and female man ought to be used more often, to highlight the reality of the matter. I feel like I can't use the word reality enough, as a society we are living quite far from it.

Sorry can someone explain what DSD is?

Also I'm glad women are talking about this, it does feel like you have to tip toe around the subject and be accepting of it, but that's dangerous and how far will it go?

Trans ideology is very weak on it's own. That's why it consistently piggybacks on other issues to gain traction and acceptance on a wider scale. It also uses very conflicting narratives to cause confusion amongst the public.

It jumped on intersex conditions to extrapolate that because a really tiny percentage of the human population have genuine genetic and hormonal problems, this somehow should also apply to men and women who are perfectly healthy to identify in whatever way they want. They have even coopted an intersex phrase 'assigned at birth'. Various intersex groups have said they do not wish to be used as part of the trans debate, but the concept has gone viral.

Trans ideology latched onto gender / sex dysphoria, which is a mental health issue, and used that to propel itself forward. Many of the general public have heard of transsexuals and can feel compassion for people struggling with severe dysphoria. Trans ideology tries to give the impression to the public that transsexual is the same as transgender by constantly going on about dysphoria, while in the background, organisations like Stonewall say you don't need dysphoria to be trans, nor do you need to have any sort of sex reassignment surgery. The public still thinks trans means a tiny percentage of the population who have had SRS.
The movement has also ensured that dysphoria is no longer classed as a mental health issue so any therapy or treatment to address underlying problems is claimed to be 'conversion therapy'. However, trans people apparently will kill themselves if their demands are not met and they don't have easy access to hormones and surgery....

It's worth noting that the number of transsexuals is tiny, so trans ideology has been redefined to include pretty much anyone by saying even crossdressers can be trans. They made the trans category a free-for-all by adopting the idea of self identification - all it takes to be trans is simply saying that you are. Throw in the even more vague and sketchy concepts of non-binary gender identities and voilà! You have inflated numbers and made it seem like the trans population is much bigger than it actually is, while continuing to repeat the lie that transgender people are only a tiny, tiny percentage of the overall population and we should all just play nice because this isn't going to have any significant effect on society.

It has also appropriated the struggles of black people, in particular black women, to insist that's why males should be accepted into female spaces without questions.
The ideology uses the deaths of black transwomen and transwomen of other nationalities who are usually involved in prostitution as evidence of some widespread systematic reign of terror to exterminate all transgender people, while providing very little concrete evidence that this is actually the case. Surely our newspapers would be filled with articles if they were dropping like flies.

And don't forget, spreading inaccurate information about the Equalities Act by saying it's discrimination to exclude trans people in any setting, and demanding various organisational bodies implement policies to suit self-identification even though none of this is part of our legislation.
They publicly claim there is no impact on the Equalities Act or that nothing will change, while behind the scenes trans organisations are lobbying the government to remove the sex-based exemptions defined in the Equalities Act.

I really would not trust anything coming out of the trans privilege lobby groups. Bunch of self-serving shysters.

In answer to the OP, a woman is a human that was observed to be female* at birth and survived long enough to reach sexual maturity.

*females are members of a species that, if all develops normally, will produce the larger of two gametes and (for mammals) gestate and nurse young. “Women” therefore includes sterile females, females with surgical alterations, women with chromosomal disorders such as XO and even some XY individuals (Those lacking a functional SRY gene). Female does not include any members of the species that make the smaller gamete and can ejaculate (again if all goes normally during development).

Hi lovesT, the acronym DSD stands for Disorders of Sexual Development and refer to a wide range of rare genetic mutations and physiological malfunctions that might cause health problems for the people who have them. They are informally known as 'intersex' conditions, which is a bit of a misnomer since there are only two biological sexes. There is no third sex or intersex.

There is a long, but very informative article on all the types of 'intersex' conditions that we know about so far, written by a person with a DSD.
medium.com/@radfemflareon/the-intersex-masterpost-bb5a6250e6d6

This is unrelated to transgender issues and policies, even though the Trans Privilege Activists consistently try to conflate the two.

@NonnyMouse1337 thank you, I thought that's what it is but there are so many names flying around I wanted to be sure!

I agree that's totally different to trans and it must be frustrating to be labelled in that category. I'll have a look at that article.

Also found your post before very interesting! It definitely feels bigger than it is and feels quite daunting (meaning transgender etc) and I do worry about how it's going to affect work places and schools and more very soon ...

Trans ideology is very weak on it's own. That's why it consistently piggybacks on other issues to gain traction and acceptance on a wider scale. It also uses very conflicting narratives to cause confusion amongst the public.

Attaching the T to LGB was one of their cleverest moves. They’re actually complete opposites, seeing as being LGB is about being attracted to the same sex and T is about prioritising gender over sex. But the public now view them as linked.

EmpressLesbianInChair you're absolutely right. I had forgotten the masterstroke of attaching the T to LGB. They really have nothing in common, but are now linked in people's minds.
I hope the LGB Alliance gains sufficient traction to decouple the two concepts again.

No problem, lovesT. There is a lot of info to get your head around and it's very confusing and overwhelming when you first start looking into it. There are many overlapping areas that are affected by trans ideology, so it can take a while to grasp the extent of it and make the connections. It doesn't help that the ideology itself is quickly evolving as I mentioned by piggybacking on different concepts and changing its criteria as it goes along. Add in social media, and a lot of half-baked ideas, untruths and 'alternative facts' spread quickly by fans of gender identity.

It's taken me about a year of reading lots, especially the excellent analysis of women here, to get to the stage where I feel sufficiently confident to explain it myself. I still struggle to confront these topics in person though as I don't have my extensive notes to hand!

I hope the LGB Alliance gains sufficient traction to decouple the two concepts again.

So do I.

TRAs talk of trans rights being the new Section 28 and I think that’s accurate - just not for the reasons they’re claiming. TRA ideology takes us right back to the days of Section 28, when it was unacceptable to be openly homosexual.