What makes a woman a woman?

[FierceMamaBear]

Please discuss.
What makes a woman a woman?
What makes a man a man?

Is a girl who plays football any less of a girl?
Is a boy who plays princesses any less of a boy?
Is a woman who likes a pint at the pub less of a woman?
Is a man who drinks wine in a bubbly bath less of a man?

Is not the suggestion of feeling like a man/woman/boy/girl horrifically outdated and sexist? I felt like society was moving towards accepting of boys playing with fairies and girls playing with trucks, but now it seems very much against that.

Why is that literal human biology is being challenged and not gender stereotypes?

Am I the only one who finds cis offensive? I'm not a cis woman, I'm a woman. I find the term offensive. Women have been suppressed throughout history and to the present day. Women have worked hard to make woman a strong empowering word. I loved the always throw it like a girl campaign. Although, of course, no longer buy always.

Would love a discussion, my OH refuses to talk about it and all he'll say is their brain waves dont match up to their body

@DerbyshireGirly Spot on. As events have proved, trans women's voices are more important than women's. They'll never understand it.

@lifesnotaspectatorsport I agree gender stereotypes are cultural, however I do not think gender and gender stereotypes are the same thing, which as far as I understand is unpopular belief.

Biology is what makes a woman a woman and a man a man.

Sex and gender used to be used interchangeably which is why they meant the same thing to you growing up. But languages evolve and current usage gives those two words different meanings

World Health Organisation Glossary:

Sex

The different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.

Gender

Refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. The concept of gender includes five important elements: relational, hierarchical, historical, contextual and institutional. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours – including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places. When individuals or groups do not “fit” established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion – all of which adversely affect health.

@TheShoesa I'm taking that to confirm gender stereotypes are now gender. Feels so backwards.

I dont believe that gender roles sterotypes can erase biology. Some do

Biology is one level, and the only level of chromosomal expression of large/small gamete producers.

Socialisation (gender) is a different level and does not impactnupon biology, its only about societal expectations (historically harmful to women) and stereotypical roles.

And excuse me, but wtf is Barbie doing being acticely promoted again. All thats wrong with the worst of female gender role stereotyping.

Nothing we can do about sex, apart from try to alter physical appearance through harmful means

So so much we can do about harmful gender stereotypes which seem to have become so fixed in some peoples minds, with worsening outcomes.

Why can't society finally come to grips with the end of gender sterotypical roles, expectations, and expression of sex.

Wear what you want, be who you want, and remove pressures to conform to a label.

Me wearing a hard hat, boots, driving a jcb, running the country, short hair, shooting, etc, all old gender sterotypes don't make me a man, equally heels and lippy doesn't make me a woman.

Regardless of what I wear, or my choice of profession, clothing and appearance, I am still a woman. If I were to prefer jeans to mini skirts and high heels, Im still a woman, even if I didn't paint my nails

I still have ovaries and all thats encumbant with that, and I'm still xx.

One can't conflate biology with social constructs, one has arisen from the other, i.e. discrete entities

One is based in scientific evidence the other in social interaction.

One is fixed, immutable. The other eminently subjective and flexible, and extremely harmful, based on evidence of actual deaths, severe harm and discrimination to date for women.

If you have a Y chromosome, you are male. If you do not have a Y chromosome, you are female.

Gender stereotypes should be shot down in flames where they belong. I have daughters under 12, worked very hard to make sure they knew they could wear any colour, play any game, use any toy. These things don't belong to males or females. Along comes the trans movement, and suddenly if you don't subscribe to extreme versions of gender stereotypes, you're transphobic.

I am not phobic of trans people. I AM phobic of spiders.
Happy for trans people to do their thing, but not at the cost of women/girls and they should play sport according to their sex. Not how they like to dress and whether they like to wear make up or not.

Males should not be given access to female spaces, jobs, awards, sports teams, etc etc. The males who don't want to be "masculine" can force other men to accept that this is also male. Not force women to accept them in their spaces.

Obviously ladies are fragile, demure, hesitant, shy, dainty, mysterious, changeable, and our brains are like pancakes.

Men like to spit and they have waffle brains.

If you have a Y chromosome, you are male. If you do not have a Y chromosome, you are female

Exception being if you have a DSD. Someone with complete AIS Is not male solely because they have a Y chromosome.

FierceMamaBear I agree it seems backwards. Gender ideology is harmful, people should be free to be as masculine or feminine as they want, regardless of their sex.

Gender identity does not trump the biological reality of being male or female and it worries me that this seems to be becoming the case, especially when it comes to women's rights, single SEX spaces, and sports which should be separated when necessary on the reality of a person's BIOLOGICAL SEX regardless of how they feel or 'present' to the world at large.

I must be gender free because I refuse to conform to restrictive stereotypes imposed on me by society because of the sex that I am.

bluebluezoo

From the NHS website AIS page - A child born with AIS is genetically male

So according to the above, a person with CAIS and a Y chromosome is a person who is male, but who has a DSD

C'mon get with it.
A man has a baby and a woman has a penis.

I can see your scientific grounding shining through there Childrenofthestones

Well, I'm not one to boast.

*From the NHS website AIS page - A child born with AIS is genetically male

So according to the above, a person with CAIS and a Y chromosome is a person who is male, but who has a DSD*

Genetically. Not physically. Not socially. Genetically I could be a whole heap of things you’d never know unless you are tested.

Tell that to a person who was born a girl, raised a girl, thought they were female, their parents, doctors, friends and family all knew they were female.

Until they hit 16 and go to the GP because their periods haven’t started. Genetic test shows XY.

You’re really going to insist that poor child is a man? Imagine it’s your dd. It’s a shit situation learning you’re infertile and may struggle to have sex. But yes dear, you have a y chromosome so you’re really a male.

DSD’s are a rare exception to the binary, and in those cases regardless of physical or genetic definitions, we should go with the person’s choice of which sex to align with.

Bluebluezoo, but do you extrapolate from that that everyone who wants to be female should be allowed to choose that ?

Or just people with that specific genetic trait?

To me there is a world of difference

DSD’s are a rare exception to the binary, and in those cases regardless of physical or genetic definitions, we should go with the person’s choice of which sex to align with

I agree

I didnt think this thread was about DSD, and that was already stated.

Its not about DSD, and accusing pp of being mean to a particular situation, by the difference between sex and gender.

Thats very different to aligning oneself, or being conditioned lifelong into beibg one sex or the other.

If gender stereotypes were absent it wouldn't even exist

Isn't the Y chromosome not functioning though? So they only have one functioning chromosome, which is X. I would class them as a woman, not a man, they do not have a functioning Y chromosome.

Being an adult female

It’s biology not a feeling, desire or delusion

You're derailing the thread bear and making it about DSD, which its not.

DSD is genetic condition.

And how am I doing that exactly? My thread isn't about DSD, I'm well aware of that. I replied to a comment asking if we thought those with DSD were men. I answered a question that was perhaps semi In relation to my OP but was in relation too some of the comments on what makes you a woman. I'm not sure that counts as me detailing my thread, it's part of the discussion about what makes you a woman isn't it? it's a very rare occurrence and a biological reality, nothing like being trans.

What makes a woman? Biology.

I just think that DSD is a very complex and separate matter.

Having DSD isn't addressing what makes a woman a woman is it?

Your OP set clear parameters of biology and gender, sexism etc.

DSD has been discussed at length, in conflation with gender id, there are many threads which discuss it at length and in depth.

It is a different discussion to gender/sex.

DSD is a discussion of genetic disorders.

I didn't comment on the second part of your OP. Regarding the term 'cis' I too find that offensive. I have heard it said that it should be used to differentiate biological women from transwomen, but I agree with JHB in

from about 8 minutes in. They were discussing prisons (another issue where sex not gender should be the deciding factor in my opinion) and her guest just would not have it that he was not welcome to use 'cis' on Julia's show

How did anything become all about gender, its just unfathomable!