Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

frack you seem all over the place, to me. With an incoherent belief system that you simply are unable to apply to all the different aspects of this ideology.

You seem unable to let go of the idea that gender is something that is innate. Even though, intellectually, you know it isn't.

Or if you do just about realise that it is not, you still believe it serves a positive purpose.

One way to examine this is to actually write down what sort of societally imposed roles are assigned to each sex.

It works very well when you do it historically. Where women were not allowed to handle their own money because they were irresponsible, or too fluffy to be educated, and then too uneducated to hold office.

Where it was a foregone conclusion that giving women the vote would merely give their husband two votes.

This is all gender. Women are oppressed because of their sex, and gender is the means by which it's done.

Even before they're born. Studies have shown that if a boy kicks, he is 'going to be a footballer that one', if a girl kicks, 'she's going to be trouble that one'.

Girls are assigned thoughts, feelings and roles by a patriarchal society. That is gender. It's detrimental to women and girls.

All humans are gender nonconforming, because it's being forced on them. It's not natural.

Why do girls do so much better in stem subjects in an all girls school?

There are numerous examples of how gender disadvantages women.

If you think gender is not society imposed roles that are forced on humans, what on earth do you think it actually is?

Honestly Frack your responses just get weirder and weirder. Bodies aren't gendered, they're sexed. And personality or set of interests can coexist with any type of body. There is no reason, outside of sexist frameworks that make people think that their breasts or their penis somehow don't match their personality, why someone should feel that having those body parts just isn't right for them. Well, other than trauma, and as I said about your earlier story, the societal response to trauma should not be to inflict further damage on the traumatized person.

It's nonsense, and I suspect that on some level you know that.

None of my questions have been answered. None. Should I start a thread in AIBU about how I shouldn’t have to put up with being gaslighted in FWR?

Until we do, we still need words to explain how people are non-conforming within hegemonic frameworks like heteronormativity

The word salad above appears to be searching for the word "personality". It is as unreasonable to expect all people of the female sex to have similar personalities as it is to assume people of the male and female sex have different personalities.

I would like an answer to LangCleg's question too.

I asked you a very simple question Frack, what do you understand the word gender to mean?

If you can’t answer that then how can you have an opinion on any of the others, considering that you think gender should be a reason for blocking the natural and healthy pubertal development in some children, rendering them infertile, incapable of having a sex life wen an adult, not laying down bone growth essential to support an adult body, hhalting cognitive development and leaving these young adults in a state of suspended childhood. That’s an awful lot of messing about with minds and bodies to base on a concept you can’t even describe.

Placemarking, just seen this.

@LangCleg asked Why are you supporting puberty blockers in minors but coming out against surgical intervention in adults?
@Dreichdrizzle said I would still like to know how you account for the difference in the requirement for medical treatment for adult MTF trans and trans children.

I am not totally against surgical intervention in adults. I just want to problematise heteronormativity embedded in the medical establishment. These decisions should be made according to need, on a case by case basis. Children and adults are different. [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
This Wikipedia article]] describes the difference really well

@LangCleg asked Why do you think MTF surgery an iteration of patriarchal imposition by surgeons but remain silent on FTM surgery?
Why is surgery driven by heteronormative ideals but puberty blockers are not?

We were discussing Jazz Jennings, and FtM surgery isn’t mentioned on here much. However whilst I do think FtM surgery is similarly influenced by patriarchy, it isn’t entirely the same. F genitals are traditionally viewed as a receptacle, and M genitals are not, so this will impact FtMs differently.

I don’t like the terms FtM or MtF by the way as a. they centre sex, b. they centre binarism and c. many trans people don’t go from one binary to another. I used them to respond to your question.

Many asked what do you understand the word gender to mean?

I have already laid out my view on this in the thread by have a look at the Wiki I posted above which does so in more detail.

I can’t remember who asked Why does gender dysphoria happen?
I think this is different for different (groups of) people and for different age groups. For some, it’s heteronormative pressure; for others, it’s physical/hormonal/neurological

A few people asked about how I feel about my claim that ROGD has been debunked in the light of the Zucker paper. TBH I like Zucker’s arguments and have shifted my position a bit due to our discussions on it. So I can now see that ROGD may in fact be a phenomenon, but I don’t feel that changes the need for young people to be supported on a case by case basis to work out what if anything to do about it.

@LangCleg also said I think it's absolutely vile that you support medically-induced anorgasmia and reduced cognitive function being imposed on minors but protest about adult males having surgery to remove their penis, and have nothing at all to say about adult females having surgery to remove their breasts.

I don’t support any of that. I support people having a range of options open to them according to need. Anyone who knows a real trans kid will understand the impact of persistent distress and will have had to make some difficult decisions. Anorgasmia and reduced cognitive function are not inevitable, are they? Please post a reference on this aspect as I don’t know enough about it.

@JanesKettle asked:
Do you have children ? Do you spend time with them if you do ? Have you ever met a child who could mask - 24/7, 365 days a year, year after year, the kind of distress that requires blockers, cross-sex hormones and surgery ?

Yes I do have children. Children can certainly mask distress, especially if traumatised. However you’ve rather proved my point. As Zucker suggests, the 12-18m wait for GIDS could be treated as ‘watchful waiting’, and if a young person still exhibits this distress after all that time then he says they should be assessed for potential treatment of one kind or another (according to each case).

Do you think parents of kids with ROGD are stupid ? Do you think all ROGD kids live in families where the parents are threatening them if they deviate one iota from prescribed gender norms ? Do you not understand how dismissive and condescending you are to parents living with adolescents with sudden-onset GD ?

No, I don’t think that. But your view could equally be applied to the way other parents are treated on this forum- parents whose children do need treatment.

Why is surgery driven by heteronormative ideals but puberty blockers are not?

Was the main question that I have asked you at least half a dozen times. What is your fear of responding?

I don’t like the terms FtM or MtF by the way as a. they centre sex, b. they centre binarism and c. many trans people don’t go from one binary to another.

I'm sure you don't. And I'm sure you are entirely happy to be able to express your views with the language you choose but, as you perfectly well know, this is a benefit accrued to only one side of the purported debate allowed on FWR.

I am restricted to terms that won't get me banned and am unable to express my views with any clarity.

If you think the censoring of language is a bad thing, do feel free to take it up with MNHQ. Or, and here's another question: do you think I should only be allowed to use language approved by you?

I just want to problematise heteronormativity embedded in the medical establishment

you want to 'problematise heteronormativity' by using children's bodies? are you serious?

[regarding gender] have a look at the Wiki I posted above

I've attached a picture of where that link goes - do you want to try that again frack? or you could just explain in your own words, like the other women here do. that would be ace. do you lack confidence in your ability to explain yourself or something?

Please post a reference on this aspect as I don’t know enough about it

No.

I'd suggest reading your own links or one or more of the dozens of replies you've had here over the past week or so. It's all there if you only look for yourself.

There's a pun about geese and ganders in there, if only I wouldn't get banned for making it.

o you lack confidence in your ability to explain yourself or something?

It's almost as if Frac doesn't really understand what it is she supports isn't it?

I'm sure that's not the case though as we will get her own opinion soon.

I have already laid out my view on this in the thread by have a look at the Wiki I posted above which does so in more detail.

I am quite interested Frack in knowing in your own words what the word gender means because I am new to this thread and I have found it all a bit unclear. You rely a lot on academic (and maybe not so) publications to explain your points. Surely when debating a concept about gender, this is incredibly personal and unique...... hence the whole premise?

Many asked what do you understand the word gender to mean?

"I have already laid out my view on this in the thread by have a look at the Wiki I posted above which does so in more detail."

That link goes nowhere.

You could use five or six paragraphs, if necessary, to describe what you think is gender.

It's not difficult.

Unless you wrote the wiki article Frac that's not what YOU think, that's not your opinion, people are asking for your opinion.

This idea of directing people around in circles to different threads and back like a choose your own adventure book isn't coming across well.

It's increasingly appearing like you don't really know what Gender means or what you are supporting in children.

I just want to problematise heteronormativity embedded in the medical establishment.

Why does gender dysphoria happen?
I think this is different for different (groups of) people and for different age groups. For some, it’s heteronormative pressure

You seem very fond of the word 'heteronormative'. I just checked the definition of this in case I had misunderstood, but it is as I thought, to do with sexual orientation.

We are discussing gender identity/gender/transgender here, not sexual orientation, so I don't understand you're persistent use of this term, unless there's a newspeak definition that I am unaware of.

In the second quote above, you seem to be acknowledging that some people experience what they call gender dysphoria due to homophobia in their social environment. Do you think this problem should be solved by transition (making the person 'heterosexual') or by greater acceptance of homosexuality?

I just want to problematise heteronormativity

Isn't this something to do with queer theory?

Isn't this something to do with queer theory?

Interrogating heteronormativity in primary schools: the No Outsiders project

Isn't this something to do with queer theory?

Yes. But I doubt Frack will admit it.

Given Frack's endless refusal to answer a simple question about puberty blockers in children and surgery in adults, I'll make a stab at the answer...

Queer theory asserts boundaries are bad and subverting them is good. The safeguarding of children involves boundaries about their medical treatment so we must subvert them and prescribe plenty of yummy puberty blockers. The boundaries women have with regard to XY people in their spaces are bad so we must subvert them and not insist that XY people have to have surgery in order to access those spaces or take on an XX identity.

I don't know why Frack can't just type that! It's not hard.

Genderists don't believe in boundaries.

There. A tl;dr version for free!

(I even managed it without - I hope - breaking guidelines. I win, right?!)

I don’t like the terms FtM or MtF by the way as a. they centre sex, b. they centre binarism and c. many trans people don’t go from one binary to another.

Quite aside from the word salad aspects of this (it really is better to use plain English not academic waffle).

1 Hormones and surgeries are only about sex. Men and women have been free to wear whatever clothes they wish, wear make up or not, have long or short hair as they please, in the Western world for several decades now. Surgeries and hormones are not about gender presentation, they are about trying, fruitlessly, to change sex.

2 Sex is binary. There are only two, male and female, two sex chromosomes X and Y, two types of gonads testicles and ovaries, two sorts of gamete eggs and sperm.

3 No trans person goes from one binary to the other because human beings ca not change sex. After all the hormones and surgeries going the trans person remains exactly the same 100% male in MtF or 100% female in FtM they started out as. Do you really not understand this very basic point? It is all cosmetic, no one can change their sex, mammals just don't work like that.

I win, right?!

yes lang, you get a signed copy of Gender Trouble and and all expenses paid trip to the Michel Foucault memorial naked sauna

I just want to problematise heteronormativity embedded in the medical establishment.

I find the concept of young lesbians undergoing surgery to turn them into straight boys, and vice versa for young gay boys, highly heteronormative and problematic. But it’s thoroughly embedded in the queer establishment.

I just want to problematise heteronormativity embedded in the medical establishment

Regardless of whether or not you agree with this aim could someone put it into English?

Is it something to do with recognising there may be a bias itowards heterosexual people and heteronormative people in medical treatment? And having recognised this, formulating policies to deal with the bias?