Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

I'd tell you my views on gender if everyone could even agree what it is! Do I have one? How do I know what it is?
As far as I can tell it means anything from 'sex stereotypes' to 'personality' or 'soul'/'essence'. I tend to think of gender as meaning 'cultural ideas of femininity and masculinity'. I don't believe femininity is necessary nor sufficient to be female (and likewise masculinity/male). Sex and gender are describing different things that can sort of overlap to varying degrees but bizarrely seem to be used interchangeably in many places.

are you seriously suggesting that surgically removing breasts and trying to do your damnedest to disguise yourself as the opposite sex is a solution to men's sexual assaults on women

The men would definitely notice something was up if we all cut our tits off.

Frack still hasn't answered my question from 3 days ago, so many pages since I can't be bothered to bold the name.
I asked (longer version twice at start of thread) why you gave a reference which talks about gender non conforming youth(I was a goth meself) feeling pressure from family, friends and mass media to conform to gender norms
and then saying to help with that pressure, therapies, puperty blockers, surgery should be given
I asked twice already frack why a gender non conforming youth under pressure from family friends media should be given this treatment?

I used to share eyeliner with my male friends when I was a baby goth. Potential for conjunctivitis aside, should my male friends have been offered medical treatment for their desire to look pretty? Should I have, since eyeliner use in goths could be argued to be entirely non binary?

TheProdigalKittensReturn
should my male friends have been offered medical treatment for their desire to look pretty?
Thats something I think about, can I get liposuction and lip fillers and a breast argumentation of I say I am non binary. Because I feel non binary in that I don't confirm to gender norms so to condorm to gender norms I'd would need bigger breasts, a smaller stomach and bigger lips.

LangCleg said:
So, you're saying: puberty blockers for Jazz = great, super, fandabbydozy; surgery for Jazz = imposed by patriarchal male surgeons, one of whom is Marcie Bowers, so bad.

Have I got that right?

And then the thread seemed to veer off into concepts of gender, helpfully avoiding Lang's ask for clarification.

Strange that.

It would seem even Frack isn't going to risk further shilling for puberty blockers!

Strange that.

Was that the point at which the OP started asking questions, rather than answering them?

If i started a thread about wanting to know the answer to the question I've been asking the last 3 days would that be TAAT and if I didn't get a response would it just be Identifying as a TAAT?

Im seeking nuance and to test the holes and gaps in all the arguments, including mine. I'm trying out ideas and thinking them through.

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

My arse!!!

What are we not paying attention to while Frack is jerking us around??

Frack has been given plenty of opportunities to put forward a coherent, fact-based, evidenced argument, failed miserably, gone off in a huff and come back trailing gibberish and lobbing distractions.

I doubt that there is much more to see here - bloody brilliant thread though and I am very glad it has been reinstated.

Frack, besides anything else, do you think it's kinda rude to use the labor of a board full of women 'to test holes and gaps in your argument', without explicitly noting at the beginning of the thread that this was your intention ?

Your stated intention was 'I am sharing resources which debunk ROGD'. Did it change half way, or were you always planning on using responses here to help you strategise ways to shore up your pro-gender argument ?

Yes Frack I appreciate it’s easy to get distracted but there are a good deal of questions going unanswered here, so maybe you can pause and answer some. You moved on from the debate to talk about your friend without answering questions so can you please address this question made by Lang

So, you're saying: puberty blockers for Jazz = great, super, fandabbydozy; surgery for Jazz = imposed by patriarchal male surgeons, one of whom is Marcie Bowers, so bad

Bear in mind that as things stand and you haven’t had a wholesale change of heart, or this isn’t some academic exercise for you, you started this thread with the intention of demonstrating that puberty blockers are acceptable. Jazz Jennings is the very public face of what this means with implications all to see. Do you still think this? How does this square with your dissertation thinking?

I have been working and parenting, so haven't had time to respond, and I won't have time to respond properly to everyone's questions for a few hours and possibly not wven today.

By the way, I don't feel like I've had my arse handed to me at all. The idea that anyone would not be open to holes in their arguments is frankly quite disturbing. For me it's a given. Otherwise are we not all just shouting at each other without listening? The problem is that a forum like this isn't the best place for such discussions. I don't feel each discussion has been resolved for anyone, and there are many discussions going on at once. It does though have the potential sometimes for some useful interactions.

The whole point of this thread was for you to fill in the hole in the argument that ROGD has been debunked.

You haven’t filled the hole, merely dug it deeper and wider.

I'll tell you what's 'disturbing'
Experiments on children.

Off topic but I didn't know Marcie Bowers was trans. Suddenly, that whole situation makes a tiny bit more sense.

As a PP has already asked, and Frack hasn't answered, it has long baffled me why there are so many transwomen who know they are women, beard, functional penis and all, and have no desire for medical intervention, yet are adamant that all trans children should be sterilised and have no sexual function. And why do both transmen and non-binary females seem to require mastectomies very early, and Charlie was never trans. Whereas both transwomen and non-binary males don't need to do anything.

It's like there's a different rule for adult males than everyone else.

It's a mystery.

^I'll tell you what's 'disturbing'
Experiments on children.^

And the adults advocating this.

Whilst not everyone will agree, I think for mumsnet there is almost unanimous agreement The problem won't be resolved until children are protected , supported and not taken down an unproven medical route without strong evidence that medical is abosoluly necessary and evidence that it leads to better whole life outcomes, which it seems mumsnet users are largely in agreement is missing.

Marci Bowers, yes, who pushed for children to be able to have genital surgery at any age if they were deemed competent to understand the implications.

By the way, I don't feel like I've had my arse handed to me at all.

LOLs.

Marci Bowers, yes, who pushed for children to be able to have genital surgery at any age if they were deemed competent to understand the implications.

So, Frack - you have said that you feel the pushing of surgical intervention is male patriarchal when it comes to MTF surgery, including when it's Marci Bowers doing it. Yes? That's what you said?

Even though you are unable to answer as to why the pushing of MTF surgery is male patriarchal but the pushing of puberty blockers is not - is pushing FTM surgeries (eg mastectomies and hysterectomies) also male patriarchal? Or is just the pushing of surgery onto XY trans persons you're objecting to? And you're not really that fussed what happens to XX trans people?

If Marci Bowers, a trans woman, is pushing male patriarchal ideas in their surgery, does that mean despite transitioning males still retain their ingrained patriarchal beliefs about the world?

Also, the idea that a child should be allowed access to such surgery without psychological assessment is so utterly abhorrent I just can’t even comprehend.

And Susie Green of Mermaids endorses this.

Frack.

Here's a handy explanation.

Sex: this is knowing which one/both/neither in an adult couple has the potential to produce large gametes and carry and give birth to a child.

Gender: is feeling uncomfortable that your male child wants to do ballet or your female child wants to play football.

That's it. We should be breaking down the barriers of boys and ballet/girls and football - not trying to remove the genitals of the kids that want to do something their same sex friends don't.

^The whole point of this thread was for you to fill in the hole in the argument that ROGD has been debunked.
^^
^You haven’t filled the hole, merely dug it deeper and wider.

THIS

Come back Frack and answer the questions.....

It makes you look as if you have no answers if you show up on the thread again but still ignore them.

That is how your position is tested, strengthened and refined, by dealing with the most difficult questions, which point out areas you haven’t thought of or haven’t addressed properly.

We’re doing half the work for you by asking you these, if you really are serious about testing your arguments, shouldn’t you be at least making some attempt to formulate responses.