Lib Dems actively deterring GC women

[DontBuyANewMumCashmere]

Today I emailed the Lib Dems expressing an interest in joining their party.

I stated no one should receive discrimination or abuse for their transgender status but explained that I am GC and I asked if there was room for GC women in the party.

I received the following response:
Thank you for getting in touch. Whilst we appreciate your interest in joining, you should be aware that the Liberal Democrats are a trans inclusive party, and we have made it clear that we fully behind trans communities. As liberals we champion everyone’s right to live the life they want. By the sounds of your email it appears that your values are not aligned with ours so we are probably not the right the party for you.

I am flabbergasted. I didn't expect that I would have to believe that humans can change biological sex in order to be a member of the Lib Dems.

I am so disappointed. I was going to vote for them in the GE (passionate Remainer) but I cannot if this is their response.

There is no one to vote for. I am lost.

but as far as I understand it, doesn't go as far as saying one person can initiate it without any consent from the other

The you clearly don't understand it. Sure, like in most other countries it will inevitably be quicker if both parties agree ,(which is why I said I would be open to an expididated process attached to the grc) but no fault divorce would still be able to be initiated by one party

Don't you think that on issues specific to women, you have a lot to learn rather than a need to lecture?

Yes absolutely. And all the women in the party that I know support trans rights. (Im pretty sure the three letter word is banned here so just going to have to go with non-trans). Some of the biggest supporters and advocates for trans rights are non-trans women.

But divorces are long and complicated for a reason. There are custody agreements to be arranged, property, financial details, it's not a simple process. If my divorce to Fred takes over a year, two years, that's not going to be good enough for Fred (or the Lib Dems) is it? It is my view that no one should be forced to accept a fundamental change to the nature of their marriage. Clearly, it is the lib dem view that they should be forced to, in order to facilitate the person who wants to change their gender.

That's not acceptable to me.

@Factsdontcare

But that's just the point - why not just allow an opt out? Why have an "expedited" process that may still take a while if only one party wishes for it to happen.

Why no opt in? Why force these women to go through a divorce process at all and to be in a legal same sex marriage for any period of time?

Because the partners of trans people I've spoken to and heard want it this way, and I'm more inclined to listen to them than someone on Mumsnet

That's not acceptable to me.

And it's your right to hold that view. We dissagee and take a different view.

Why?

Are you assuming that the women speaking anonymously here are all making it up?

Serious question, as after all, anyone can say anything on the internet. But the flip side of that is that when not talking face to face in real life, women feel safer to say what they mean.

Women talking to you in real life are likely to be those who agree with you; or disagree but prefer not to get into a long argument with someone who likes 'destroying them on the conference floor'.

'Women in the party' is likely to be a biased sample also, given the hostile attitude to those who disagree.

You have a lot of biases going on. Think.

Good, @facts, thank you for clarifying that it is acceptable to you to force a woman to stay in a marriage against her will.

That is what I thought the Lib Dems position would be, sadly, and why you will not be getting a vote from me, even though I would vote lib dem based on brexit.

And yes, yes, you are free to do the glib, "we don't want your votes" blah blah, but bear in mind how your party was utterly annihilated just a couple of elections ago. You need votes. And you are not getting them.

Thanks for fighting the good fight about spousal consent on behalf of trans widows, all. I'm too worn out to join in with it today.

Factsdontcare do you consider it homophobic when young lesbians are told that they're bigots if they're same-sex, not same-gender attracted?

(I think I already know the answer).

Because the partners of trans people I've spoken to and heard want it this way, and I'm more inclined to listen to them than someone on Mumsnet

Have you read the trans widows threads @Factsdontcare? It doesn't sound as though you have. This will give you a wider perspective. At the moment, if I'm honest, you're coming across as someone who won't listen to anyone else's views if they don't align with your preconceptions.

EmpressLesbianInChair nobody should be shamed or abused for who they do or don't want to have sex with. Lesbians who don't want to have sex with trans women (and vis versa for Gays) are entirely free to do so. I think there is a fair argument to have about the reasons underlying that, but they shouldn't be abused for what is ultimately their preference. Equally, gays and lesbians like me, who do recognise trans men as men and trans women as women, should not be abused by ""GC"" people and told we aren't real gays/lesbians, which we are on a regular basis.

I have read some of the stuff in those threads (I'm not going to use that term though), and I think people are free and entitled to get a divorce if they are in a marriage they don't want to be in anymore.

@Factsdontcare I posted this earlier (at 11.34), but you didn't reply, and I'd still like an answer.

I watched the video of Helen and Helen's wife (I realise now I don't even know her name) on Helen's website. They said that their children were very young (I think they said about 3 and 6) when Helen decided to transition. Do you really think a woman in that situation has 'literally any opportunity they want to end the marriage'?

Do you understand how hard it might be for a woman with young children to end her marriage? Do you not think she might find it easier to remain in the marriage with her husband even if he changes his name and starts dressing differently? Should she not have the right to keep that marriage as one which is legally (as well as actually) heterosexual?

Marriage is an equal partnership between two people who have equal human rights. It is not about a man owning a woman.

No I can't help myself.

It's good to have confirmation that the Lib Dems don't listen to trans widows, just the people they know personally .

And that they are all doing what one particular LIb Dem TRA tells them to do.

Imagine being a trans widow of a person who is alleged to have a very close relationship with the police, particularly via a vis "hate" crime, and then imagine how freely you'd feel able to speak.

"I am a gay man who has had relationships with trans men. I wouldn't date a woman, I'm not interested in women. Trans men are men."

Rather than post a reply (which would probably get me banned) I think I need to take a few tablets and have a lie down

have read some of the stuff in those threads (I'm not going to use that term though), and I think people are free and entitled to get a divorce if they are in a marriage they don't want to be in anymore.

Yes. It's always that simple.

You know, sometimes I think some people don't quite understand how elections work. I do appreciate when they show us who they are though.

”Trans men are men”
“I am a gay man”

Which definition of man are you using here? It varies depending on context so it seems?

So many weaselly words within this ideology how are we to know what anyone is?

Translation becomes easier once you realise that all the words mean "shut up and do what I say" in the end.

"I am a gay man who has had relationships with trans men. I wouldn't date a woman, I'm not interested in women. Trans men are men."

But if facts is a 'gay man' and 'trans men are men' it's possible that facts is actually a transman. It's what I always think when I see 'gay men' arguing for the eradication of homosexuality.

I'm not interested in women.

Yes that's very apparent.

That's true, OldCrone. I may be wrong in my assumption that Facts has never been a teenage girl.

So is Facts an official LD representative confirming details of their policy?

Transitioning young children ✅
Forcing women to stay in a fundamentally changed marriage ✅
Thinks divorce - when children, jobs and finances are involved - is quick and easy ✅
Glib and sneery with passive-aggressive smileys ✅

For someone who wants to demolish our arguments, Factsdontcare is doing a very good job of avoiding the difficult questions.