The problem with white feminism

[FrackOff]

Listen to this amazing podcast on white feminism, the link with the right wing, racism and colonialism pca.st/vzbdlq7j

You need to hear the whole thing to get the whole argument

I believe her point was that it is considered low skilled because it's associated with being a woman's job, not because it's actually a low skill job.

I don't think male barbers/hairdressers are generally considered as more skilled though. I think it's on a similar level to plumbing or plastering, in that you've got to learn how to do it so it's a skill in that respect that most people don't have. However, it's a skill that most people could acquire if they took the time to do so and have decent hand-eye coordination and a reasonably steady hand.

I believe her point was that it is considered low skilled because it's associated with being a woman's job, not because it's actually a low skill job

Who in the real world actually thinks that? This board has, in my view, form for talking women down by exaggeration of how awful society is on issues where actually that isn't the case.

Hairdressing isn't key- hole surgery but, sorry I find the suggestion that society in general thinks hairdressing is low skill or it's low skill because it's seen as a woman's job exactly the sort of "woe is me" it's so hard being a woman nonsense I'm thinking of.

However, it's a skill that most people could acquire if they took the time to do so and have decent hand-eye coordination and a reasonably steady hand

Given my utter uselessness at anything art or arts and crafts related I very much doubt it's a skill I could acquire.

Who in the real world actually thinks that? This board has, in my view, form for talking women down by exaggeration of how awful society is on issues where actually that isn't the case.

Shocking as it may be to your sensibilities, there is a whole series of jobs or careers that some people believe are less well paid or which gain less respect because they are thought of as women's careers.

Secretarial work, for example, hairdressing, childcare, being a librarian all being examples, the latter an interesting one as it requires a masters degree but isn't well paid compared to many other such positions and many people think it amounts to checking books out and putting them on a shelf.

And in fact there is evidence that careers associated with women are less well paid than similar careers associated with men. It's not quite so simple that it's likely the only factor, but it seems to be a real factor.

I don't think male barbers/hairdressers are generally considered as more skilled though.

No, I think you are actually right in terms of hairdressers. It might make sense to wonder if the lower status of the hairdresser is due to it being associated with women and gay men, but it's true that barbering has a similar reputation.

I think you are right that it is more about that category of job generally. It may be that women have been and continue to be over-represented in that sector, because those jobs can often be easier to combin with childrearing in various ways.

See, I can well believe that in some professions where there is not a direct link between revenue and earnings (e.g. librarians) that women might have their pay pushed down due to sexism. But I struggle to see how this happens in professions like hairdressing and childcare where the worker is generally selling their services more or less directly to the customer.

Who is suppressing pay in that scenario?

Thanks goose! It's not just being a woman though is it, it's a class thing too. As has been pointed out oodles of times on the thread, class is very relevant in the U.K.

I wasn't at school too long ago (local comp with a large WC%) - it was largely true that those who were working class and less book-smart went to college to study health and beauty. Was that unusual?

Do Male barbers have to be trained in chemistry in the same way hairdressers are? As standard?

NotDavidTennant

I don't know if it is that straightforward. Like Beyond said, class is clearly also a factor, and there are other factors as well that are difficult to unpick. The fact that they are service industries is a factor

But it's interesting to look at something like secretarial work, which used to be done more by men but became a woman's job, and see how attitudes about the job have changed. Nursing is also an interesting example not so much in terms of pay which is probably in line with regards to education requirements, but in terms of people's attitudes.

Childcare is related quite closely to a perception of women's work, maybe more than any others, and here I think sometimes feminists have contributed to the idea that childcare is essentially dull and unrewarding work, which we should free women from because they are able to do so much more. But it too is affected by the fact that childcare can't cost workers more than they already bring in.

Do Male barbers have to be trained in chemistry in the same way hairdressers are? As standard?

No, in most districts I think that's one of the standard differences between the licences.

Ah thanks - I thought it might not. In that case then, barber is being given as an example of a "male" role that is equal to the looked-down-on "female" hairdressing role, when in fact a hairdresser needs more complicated knowledge?

So - and apologies in advance to those posters who don't like discussion of "poor wims" here in fwr... - in order to be equal to men, women have to be better?

My favorite example of this is computer programming. It was once considered menial women’s work, barely a step up from secretary. Now that it’s male dominated profession it is considered high status and high skill. The work is the same as it ever was (in some ways it was more difficult pre 1980 because computers were barely functional).

Actually, coding is still considered low status, and one of the more menial tasks which is often out sourced to places like India.

coding is still considered low status, and one of the more menial tasks which is often out sourced to places like India

in the USA it’s absolutely high status/high paid And certainly not working class. In fact it’s outsourced for just that reason (it’s status in the west means you can’t hire anyone here for less than 6 figures). It’s also difficult to find people to teach it in schools because they could be employed at a much higher salary in industry.

Ah thanks - I thought it might not. In that case then, barber is being given as an example of a "male" role that is equal to the looked-down-on "female" hairdressing role, when in fact a hairdresser needs more complicated knowledge?

Well, a female barber would need the same knowledge set as a male one, while a male hairdresser would need the same knowledge as a female one, so whole you could argue that hairdressing is generally more highly-skilled, I think that's due to the nature of the role rather than the sex of the person filling it IYSWIM.

I suppose most people would put them on a par, probably due to thinking about what they involve (cutting, dyeing and styling hair) without much knowledge of what they entail in terms of training. That's the case for me, anyway.

While you could argue, not whole

I don't really think people do think of barbering as higher status or skill than hairdressing. Most would put them at a similar level I suspect, they probably if they stopped to think about it realise that women's hairdressing can be more complex. Though, these days there are more high end barbers who deal with facial hair and shaving, which is an area all it's own.

The big divide I'd say exists in both is people who own their own business vs those who don't.

This is such a weird thread. Alison, a white feminist, wants to call white feminists she disagrees with "colonialists" because we challenge men. That's all it comes down to but it seems to have gone right off tangent. I may start posting about the kinds of things "white colonialists" (men) actually did. Then maybe Alison and her supporter Frack can get a clue. In the meantime:

"This is the problem right here. Cleaning DOES require specialized equipment (including chemicals that need to be handled and disposed of carefully) and skills similar in type to those needed for the other occupations listed. You ask my brother to clean a house he is going to get 409 and some paper towels and after he’s done you’ll ask him when he’s planning to get started. He has no more clue how to clean than I do how to change the oil on my Car. However of course Either of us could quickly learn either skill."

Are you seriously trying to compare a can of pledge, a lavatory brush and bleach to keeping tall ladders in the house so you can reach your first floor windows easily? I pay someone to clean my windows because I'm on the second floor and I can't reach my windows, but professional equipment can. I clean my own house because I can keep my vacuum cleaner in the cupboard, I don't need any professional help. Your brother not having a clue how to clean, isn't because cleaning is difficult, unless you are unable for some reason, it's because men can't be bothered and they leave it to women, either the ones they live with or the ones they pay.

It's got nothing to do with denigrating women's work and everything to do with noticing that men could do this too but they don't.

A lot of people are much more comfortable talking about class or race oppression than men's oppression of women because of our sex. Even on a feminist board.