The problem with white feminism

[FrackOff]

Listen to this amazing podcast on white feminism, the link with the right wing, racism and colonialism pca.st/vzbdlq7j

You need to hear the whole thing to get the whole argument

Hazardd! Are you using Claire Heuchan in support of Alison Phipps? If so....

.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Good one!

Linda Bellos discussing her time at Spare Rib. She noticed an amplification of african american black voices but a shut down of Black British.

www.bl.uk/spare-rib/articles/the-limitations-of-identity-politics

No lang not in support of Alison but in support of the notion that there is an issue within British feminism surrounding BAME and working class women.

I don't think that you will get many posters disagreeing with the idea that middle class white highly educated liberal feminists like Alison Phipps trying to impose an ideology on working class and ethnic minority women against their wishes and interests is a problem Hazardd.

I don’t think anyone is supporting Alison here. She herself is guilty of white feminism. Just pointing out that it is an issue and that claiming it is a grassroots movement and that nobody has any accountability isn’t really a good excuse. Alison is an idiot who wants to shut women down and uses their skin colour to do so. However, listening to what women like Claire say is also a good idea.

No lang not in support of Alison

Ah, okay. What's your critique of the podcast, since that's the topic of the thread.

However, listening to what women like Claire say is also a good idea.

Who said it wasn't? As I noted similarly with regard to Pragna Patel several times earlier in the thread. This thread is intended to analyse Alison Phipps's podcast.

Like I say: curious we're not doing that.

Im getting deja vu, having been part of a discussion on an Extinction Rebellion Facebook page that unfurled along similar lines. People getting upset that a grass roots activist organisation did not behave like a top down political organisation with a set of strict rules and a highly managed and curated public image, nevermind that the whole point is to focus on a single goal in a way political parties can't anymore.
Lots of vitriol flung around about white privilege, mostly from white people.
Very counterproductive.

Good well we’re in agreement then. And hopefully people won’t be criticised in the future for not focusing on the big issues if they say have an issue with people appearing to give support of right wing extremists.

Good well we’re in agreement then.

Are we? What do you think about the Phipps podcast?

people appearing to give support of right wing extremists

Has Phipps done that? Do elaborate. Has anyone on this thread critiquing Phipps done that?

Because this looks like a (second, hello Early) attempt to shoehorn in a woman who is a) not a radical feminist and b) has nothing to do with the topic at hand: the Phipps podcast.

I think theres a reasonable amount of agreement that no one cares about what Alison has to say. That's not curious.

As the thread exists isn't it a wonderful opportunity to say y'know there is an issue in feminism with racism, niches, othering and victiming and HEY LOOK AT THESE MAGNIFICENT VOICES WITHIN FEMINISM.

But no apparently we're not allowed to do that. We must only do that at certain special times.

I'm afraid there's a germ of truth in all this. White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare.

that there is an issue within British feminism surrounding BAME and working class women

What is this 'issue' you speak of...? It seems to me you are making some quite categorical and sweeping generalisations. That anyone who posts in a forthright and articulate manner on the subject of women or radical trans ideology, must be 'middle class' or have grown up privileged; never knowing hardship or discrimination.

How are you any different yourself? What makes you so sure of your own superior and inclusive stance? In what ways are you any different, or less privileged than people posting here? You are making some pretty big judgments - whilst not extended that same kind of sweeping analysis to yourself.

The motive here is to discredit Gender Critical women as being "just white and middle class" - as if that would discredit any subsequent arguments, leaving you morally pure and unblemished.

*if they say have an issue with people appearing to give support of right wing extremist8

You can voice that as much as you wish...there are no rules forbidding you from doing so. But as has already been said - this a public forum, at which, gathers a wide range of people, from a wide range of backgrounds. We are not all alike, except for in our gender critical analysis of the radical transgender ideology.

You seem to want to make each and every person who post responsible for things that some do or say that you don't like. And it also seems that you would like to shut down discussion of things you find difficult or upsetting.

As the thread exists isn't it a wonderful opportunity to say y'know there is an issue in feminism with racism, niches, othering and victiming and HEY LOOK AT THESE MAGNIFICENT VOICES WITHIN FEMINISM

It seems to me that you don't want to really discuss, in any detail or depth, substantive issues ( or the pod cast): you just want to keep repeating that there are issues with 'White feminism' as if that is enough in itself.

She herself is guilty of white feminism. Just pointing out that it is an issue and that claiming it is a grassroots movement and that nobody has any accountability isn’t really a good excuse

Whatever she does it can be guaranteed she's "guilty" too.....

This is a grassroots movement. It is not a claim. And we all have accountability for what we say and do; but we are not all accountable for everything anyone else does; although we can, of course, challenge each other.

I'm afraid there's a germ of truth in all this. White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare

And so do professional women of all ethnicities. I'm finding it difficult to find that relevant to this particular board, though

just your quite right your stance is so blind I have doubts in my ability to engage with you. So I used quotes from women who are more able to explain. But that's not enough is it? That's what's made clear over and over again. This isnt the right special time or place. I'm not putting in the right sort of effort. You say jump and I have the audacity to not be arsed.

But some women like Claire and Linda thank fuck can be arsed. So I celebrate them.

(And pps on this thread like reality and Ms can be arsed to.)

This isnt the right special time or place. I'm not putting in the right sort of effort.

Mate, you've contributed to two threads in FWR. On both, you''ve attempted a lengthy and massive derail from the topic. And then complained when other contributors tried to steer it back to the topic.

If you want to discuss something in particular: start a thread.

You're perfectly free to have any time and place you like: start a thread.

This isnt the right special time or place. I'm not putting in the right sort of effort. You say jump and I have the audacity to not be arsed

I think quite a few people have put in quite a bit of effort here and "jumped" - especially in order to engage with you. What makes you so special?

You've had it suggested you get the ball rolling on a number of occasions and people would engage and discuss......but you seem to only have one game plan - and that doesn't involve reciprocity.

I am saying that many women of colour have expressed disappointment that often their perspective is overlooked. One major example is where GC movements or prominent people in them decide to partner with people who wish harm on people of colour and when a lot (not all) GC women on forums like this tell them to suck up their concerns for the greater good.

In fact it's usually the case when these discussions happen that some of the people of colour who take the view you describe make that argument, and other people of colour disagree.

The more basic problem is that people's feelings don't tell us what to do. A group of people may all find a particular ideology seriously problematic in some way, and yet will vary about how they deal with that. Some may want to have nothing to do with them, others may be ok with strategic alliances over specific things, others may even see them as significant allies in some sense.

I also think WOC from affected cultures should take the lead on issues like hijab rather than white women imposing our views... Why can’t we listen to women from those communities and respect their views

This is an example of how identity politics ends up deepening racial divisions. This quote shows that it is assumed "women of colour" (a sweeping generalisation and othering category) are a hive mind.

Women in Iran are taking the lead and utterly rejecting the headscarf. But if we listen to them...

Also my Irish grandmother never went outside without a scarf on her head. Headscarfs are part of my culture and traditions too - does that mean I get a say?

I'm afraid there's a germ of truth in all this. White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare.

Do you think Alison employs a cleaner? She's certainly achieved status in the professional world, given that she's a professor.

Alison is taking aim at radical feminists. All the radical feminists I've ever known have generally had low incomes. There's something about the outlook which means that men don't want you to succeed in their world, and probably that you don't want to be rewarded in theirs.

I'm afraid there's a germ of truth in all this. White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare

I completely agree with this critique. Professional women can maintain a career because they can shift the feminine roles onto lower status, lower paid women. Who often come from a minority race background.

Incredible that the men who aren't pulling their weight and have shifted their "feminine" role of doing their fair share on to women, be it their female partners or cleaners whom they employ, don't even get a mention.

Men are the beneficiaries from women having to do the bulk of the domestic work, not women.