The problem with white feminism

[FrackOff]

Listen to this amazing podcast on white feminism, the link with the right wing, racism and colonialism pca.st/vzbdlq7j

You need to hear the whole thing to get the whole argument

Of course there is. Getting other people to clean up messes you've made is disgusting. There are various groups of people who need help with this, but the able-bodied should be doing it for themselves

Well I've seen some real claptrap on FWR over the years but this really is outstanding.

But where do you draw the line? Should women be churning their own butter, spinning their own yarn, collecting their own firewood?

You can keep your job. It's the male bosses who need to stand down for the good of all of us

How could I keep my job given according to some "feminists" on here I'm refusing to accept the natural feminine tasks such as cleaning my house?

Is there a handy cut out and keep guide for tasks one should virtuously do oneself and ones where it is permitted to hire outside assistance? (To be clear , I have zero interest in what the answer might be)

Should women be churning their own butter, spinning their own yarn, collecting their own firewood?

Presumably yes and hell mend the income and livelihoods of butter- churners, spinners and wood cutters.

I just drew the line - getting other people to clear up messes you've made yourself in your own home unless for some physical reason you need help. You don't need to be so obtuse.

I don't see why any man has a woman cleaning his toilet for him. Especially given the piss they spray everywhere. Quite disgusting for her.

It's such a terrible lesson to teach children too, especially boys, that there will always be someone to clear up after them. It breeds entitlement.

The working classes are so lucky to have highly educated people employ them to do domestic tasks. Where would they be without them?
It's just like how lucky working class women are that men neeeeeed them for wanking into. It gives them so much choice-choice!

terfsandwich
The working classes are so lucky to have highly educated people employ them to do domestic tasks. Where would they be without them?
It's just like how lucky working class women are that men neeeeeed them for wanking into. It gives them so much choice-choice!*

Comparing cleaners and nannies to prostitution is witless and offensive.

As it happens the cleaners in my are mixed male and female. As it happens I've employed male cleaners in my house.

Driechdrizzle
I just drew the line - getting other people to clear up messes you've made yourself in your own home unless for some physical reason you need help. You don't need to be so obtuse

You drew your own arbitrary line because I expect it allows you to polish your own halo of virtue. Calling me "obtuse" does not by the way prevent your points being ridiculous.

Driechdrizzle
That thought did occur to me, that women were being shamed for not doing their housewifely duties*

That cap fits you to a T

I’ve been shaming men. You can’t read.

I said Joyce was being obtuse, you just picked it up and ran with it.

Men cleaning their own lavatories and clearing up the messes they have made isn’t an arbitrary line, it’s pretty obvious. It’s why people employ cleaners in their home because they can see a clear line around those activities which means they can pay to have them done.

All that bullshit about virtue, it’s oppression we’re talking about here Carol.

The criticism of the proposed feminist solution in terms of shifting work to lower class women is an important one, because it shows a structural problem not only in terms of the solution but in terms of the question. It's also a criticism in some sense of capitalism and suggests that the reason the question is wrong is because it's a middle class question - the proposed answer isn't about female solidarity so much as class solidarity. For the bourgeoisie, women have more freedom to do financially advantageous and even interesting work through paid childcare, and even having fathers take on the childcare role. This is in fact a financial benefit for the whole family.

For working class women, the effect is less clearly advantageous, doesn't necessarily put her in a more powerful financial position, and in fact may well mean she is doing the same kind of work, but as an employee.

Donestic drudge, childcare = anyone can do it, therefore often falls to low skilled working class with little other choice

Prostitute = anyone can do it, therefore often falls to low skilled working class with little other choice

Plumber, mechanic = specialised trade, not a daily task, only source when need maintenance.

To be honest I just find the idea of employing a servant unpalatable. Ive been a privileged minority on an inflated wage in another country and I just couldn't participate in that service economy.

Also I find some people who have a cleaner tend to think they are so condescending kind towards a member of the lower orders, always showing off how friendly they are and how they give them cast offs etc.

I agree with you terfsandwich, I couldn't do it either.

I thought the argument was that prostitution, cam work, stripping etc was not the same as being a nanny, cleaner or supermarket worker.
Given the choice, I would much rather a woman looking for work decided to be a cleaner, for example, rather than a stripper. The LibFem argument is that both jobs are equivalent and therefore stripping is a better choice because you can potentially earn more and have more control over your work (even if it's a false sense of control).

There are problematic areas in terms of the middle classes viewing certain jobs like cleaning etc as the sole province of low skilled working classes. I think it's really important to teach middle class children, especially boys, that they should clean up after themselves and not expect others to do it for them by default. If you are able bodied, it can't be that difficult to keep a home reasonably clean. Dishwashers and washing machines make life easier. Men are capable of vacuuming, mopping, cleaning bathrooms and toilets. It only takes a couple of hours, especially if tasks are shared between two people.

However, cleaning and childcare jobs do have a place in our economies and societies. There's nothing demeaning about them and people should be paid well and treated with respect in these roles just like any other job.

terfsandwich
Donestic drudge, childcare = anyone can do it, therefore often falls to low skilled working class with little other choice

Your nasty choice of words there says a lot about you. I assume the fact that nanny had done a 2 year training college course to be a nanny sailed over your head as it doesn't fit your narrative.

I thought the argument was that prostitution, cam work, stripping etc wasnotthe same as being a nanny, cleaner or supermarket worker

Well exactly- although lumping nanny in as unskilled job is bizarre.

There are problematic areas in terms of the middle classes viewing certain jobs like cleaning etc as the sole province of low skilled working classes

The only problematic attitude I am seeing is that exhibited by terfsandwich and dreichdrizzle with their loathing and resentment of anyone who can afford to employ help and terfsandwich's really quite offensive comment comparing that type of work to prostitution.

Also I find some people who have a cleaner tend to think they are so condescending kind towards a member of the lower orders, always showing off how friendly they are and how they give them cast offs etc

More bigoted nonsense.

1 My male partner is a cleaner. He cleans planes, on night shift. He has in the past cleaned factories, in both the electronics and meat industries, and hospitals. Cleaning is not exclusive to working class women, there are a lot of working class men cleaners too.

2 Many (not all) domestic cleaners are self employed allowing for flexibility in working hours and a level of control over ones working life that an awful lot of working class women do not enjoy.

3 A lot of middle class women work in child care. Of the 5 child minders who regularly come to the song and rhyme sessions I run only one is from a working class background.

4 The richest person I know in real life is a window cleaner. Started as a one man show and built up a highly successful business employing dozens.

Cleaning and child care roles encompass a wide variety of positions. Some are low skilled, others less so. Some are low paid drudgery, others successful businesses.

Boris was struggling wielding a mop. He probably has never washed a kitchen floor or cleaned a toilet. I’m sure all his female partners will have.

How many middle class people clean other people’s toilets for money? Nobody was saying that cleaning was exclusively done by working class women, but the fact is cleaning is overwhelmingly done by working class women.

The point is the world of work is structured unfairly.

If you said cleaning was overwhelming done by working class people I would agree but you appear to be ignoring the swathes of cleaning roles from window cleaners to industrial cleaners that are male dominated.

There are issues around levels of pay in male and female dominated roles. Bin men (mostly male) are paid better than hospital cleaners (mostly female) for example which need addressing so there are structural inequalities that are worthy of discussion.

As for middle class cleaners,, not so many but then I didn't suggest there were. I mentioned middle class women in child care roles which is not unusual albeit again there may be structural inequalities in terms of the specific roles taken up by working and middle class women.

Well exactly- although lumping nanny in as unskilled job is bizarre.

I think many people view general childcare and nanny roles as 'fairly easy'. It might not be but there is a lingering perception, especially among men, as something a young woman might do in her gap year or something that 'anyone can do'. I think anyone who has actual hands-on experience with children will realise this is nonsense.

I'm in Oz where childcare costs $15 per day for the average family (ie us) what with govt subsidies - a childcare worker is very low paid and minimally qualified.

Bit different from a high paid London family who are very careful about what kind of nanny they leave their children with.

Domestic cleaning was what was being discussed here Arnold. Bringing the other stuff is just random.

Although of course the highly paid cleaning roles are dominated by men. That’s how this stuff works.

Dreich you yourself introduced other cleaning roles in suggesting male bosses clean their own offices. And window cleaners are doing a domestic cleaning role and bin men are removing domestic waste.

Why is it OK to employ people to do some domestic tasks but not others? I see no logic in that position.