The problem with white feminism

[FrackOff]

Listen to this amazing podcast on white feminism, the link with the right wing, racism and colonialism pca.st/vzbdlq7j

You need to hear the whole thing to get the whole argument

It’s a bit of Gordian Knot, people fall over themselves to avoid accusations of racism. An accusation that wouldn’t hold power if people didn’t aspire to be tolerant and not racist.

White feminists are boxed in, as if by focusing on a problem facing other ethnicities there are accusations of white saviour complexes, but not doing so and you are at best an unconscious racist, at worst a conscious one.

Take an issue like immigration, it should probably be a feminist issue that the overwhelming number of migrants are men. Surely we should be aiming for a 50/50 split by sex? but try even touching that issue as a white person without stepping on a racial landmine.

White feminism is when white women claim to be feminists and then describe the experiences of women who have different life experiences from them as niche subjects

i'm not 'claiming' to be anything......This sort of dismissive attitude is divisive and hostile and is part of the problem. You are wilfully claiming separation and difference rather seeking unity of cause.

What you are doing is actually what you accuse me of. you are saying that just because I've told you I'm whit, that means I''m automatically an oppressor of black women. Classic reversal. I'm now the 'niche' subject. What you are saying is actually racist in itself. you are maintaining separation and division and denying that women can have empathy and common cause with each other if from different backgrounds.

We all have different life experiences from each other. We are are born into different family cultures and traditions; into different geographical cultures and traditions; we each have individual personalities......What unites us is that we are women living in a male dominated society, which values women less than men.

Can someone please point me to the feminst issues which affect black women which don't affect white women, or vice versa?

I think you would struggle to find an issue that never effects white women at all, other than perhaps FGM as suggested.

There are issues that are much more likely to effect particular minority groups but often those do not effect all groups equally. A muslim woman of Pakistani descent may face abuse due to her wearing clothes that are atypical for the majority culture in a way a christian women of Kenyan heritage does not. A woman of West Indian background may face abuse regarding her body type in a way a woman of Chinese origins does not. A girl from the traveller community might be struggling to access education in a way a girl of Indian heritage isn't.

The intersection of sex and ethnicity is complex. Even with regard to FGM there is absolutely no benefit in dividing women into 'white' and 'WoC'. Many members of the 'WoC' group would not be at risk of FGM. It is far too simplistic a division to be useful on a practical level.

It's also the moments when sisters need to get together for this thing I'm interested in.....we'll do your thing later and later never comes

And what is 'your thing', exactly?

We all have multiple levels of experience and condition - regardless of sex, race, nationality, ethnicity, religion......

Feminism is about women uniting on the basis of sex, and the conditions and things they have in common on account of their sex.

It is easy to find common cause with other women, wherever they may be, whatever their social background. the shared conditions of womanhood are the same pretty much the world over.

If we all refused to have empathy with, or work with women from different cultures or backgrounds we wouldn't get very far. I think some women end up 'choosing' to see their social class or their ethnic background as their most defining feature or prominent identity - and in doing that they find division with other women - and cannot see common cause.

white feminism is when white women claim to be feminists and then describe the experiences of women who have different life experiences from them as niche subjects

It wasn't 'niche' when I had to support my young Sikh friend when she ran away, having refused to marry her parent's choice of husband, and her father came into college trying to find her - with threats to kill himself.....or when she finally agreed to a match and yet I couldn't be invited to the wedding because I was a single parent - which was shameful.....or any number of other incidents and occurrences over the years.

I'm sure I've experienced deprivations and difficult situations aplenty that you have not faced yourself.....I'll not go into them here because I don't see that is necessary. This isn't the oppression Olympics.

Yet you seem to want to seek some uniquely special oppression and demand that everyone tread on egg shells around you and defer to your every word on account of it.

I think the clearest thing is when women of colour or LGBT women explain their extreme discomfort at associating with right wing groups with racist homophobic ideologies. Maybe not from people on here personally but I have seen many many instances on here where those concerns are dismissed as being ‘divisive’ and that we should fight for the ‘common good’.

Also it’s when women of colour are actually telling you what the problem is and that they perceive it to be a problem and you are outright dismissing it. That sort of thing. It’s no different from men dismissing women’s arguments that sexism still exists and telling them to focus on ‘real issues’.

Also it’s when women of colour are actually telling you what the problem is and that they perceive it to be a problem and you are outright dismissing it.

Nobody is dismissing anything.....

But what do you expect people to do? Feminists campaign and share cause with other women, regardless of the their background, but as feminists they recognise the aspects of oppression which relate to being female first and foremost - and unite around that.

Reading some of the above posts it would seem that people cannot do right for doing wrong. They cannot empathise with friends, or recognise the specific cultural aspects of their friend's/sister's oppression - simply because they are white and indulging in privilege.

One thing that can be done is having clear boundaries and principles about who we collaborate with with some people being absolutely off limits, no exceptions. Those people include white suprematists.

Another thing is that when you are discussing things like eh hijab, be guided by feminist women from that community who have experience of it. Let them lead the conversation.

*I think the clearest thing is when women of colour or LGBT women explain their extreme discomfort at associating with right wing groups with racist homophobic ideologies8

Of course, there are no dictators, racists or homophobes in any black or ethnic groups, are there? They are all white......

The sense I'm increasingly getting here...is that so much of the American experience is being re-framed here

Just nobody is saying that at all and no WOC are saying we should link up with dictators of other races either. I am talking about GC women saying that the important thing is spreading the message and it doesn’t matter if we collaborate with people who promote racial segregation and refuse to condemn people who do this.

Another thing is that when you are discussing things like eh hijab, be guided by feminist women from that community who have experience of it. Let them lead the conversation

Well, step forward then and discuss it........nobody is preventing that. But also, I don't think it valid to expect people to bow & scrape and not have views of their own just because they are not from that community themselves.

And by continuing to say that ‘things are different in America’, insinuating that race is not a big problem here, you are undermining the voices of women who are telling you that, yes, it is a problem here.

I am talking about GC women saying that the important thing is spreading the message and it doesn’t matter if we collaborate with people who promote racial segregation and refuse to condemn people who do this

GC women come from all backgrounds, ethnicities and belief systems. We are not one lumpen mass. On some level we all have to take individual responsibility for ourselves. I'm not responsible for what you say or do.

Nope nope and ‘not all men’ right? Refuse to acknowledge the problem by individualising it.

And by continuing to say that ‘things are different in America’, insinuating that race is not a big problem here, you are undermining the voices of women who are telling you that, yes, it is a problem here

The truth is, whatever anyone here says - as long as it is not totally subservient to your word, you will find fault and make accusation.

Frankly, though, women won't be intimidated from speaking their experience, or sharing my view. What else can they do?

Rather than accuse on generalised principles - start a specific conversation, around a specific issue, and then explain what support you feel needs to be offered. You cannot expect total compliance, though, or no discussion or debate.

I should say I won't be deterred from sharing MY view. I can't speak for others

Nope nope and ‘not all men’ right? Refuse to acknowledge the problem by individualising it

Be specific! What problem? I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. But you seen to want to make all white women responsible for what one does.

Personally never refer to " all men"; even if some do. In fact, I have profound problem with such sweeping generalisations.

No I am not blaming all white women. I am saying that many women of colour have expressed disappointment that often their perspective is overlooked. One major example is where GC movements or prominent people in them decide to partner with people who wish harm on people of colour and when a lot (not all) GC women on forums like this tell them to suck up their concerns for the greater good. That has happened and is happening. It doesn’t matter that absolutely everyone isn’t doing it. Enough people are doing it for it to be a problem. Saying things like ‘x doesn’t speak for all of us and can do what she wants’ when you know that x is a very prominent figure is unhelpful. Calling it out and saying ‘x is wrong to do this, she doesn’t speak for me’ would at least offer reassurance.

And by continuing to say that ‘things are different in America’, insinuating that race is not a big problem here, you are undermining the voices of women who are telling you that, yes, it is a problem here

My town has a large immigrant community. Members of that community were openly discriminated against in jobs and housing within living memory. Members of that community are routinely subjected to jibes about their intelligence. They are subjected to football fans singing about being 'up to their knees in their blood'. Dozens of them who I know personally have been physically assaulted for their ethnicity. Organised marches come to my town every year just to wind them up. The marchers have no particular historic connection with my town, there is no reason for them to come here rather than the larger town next door beyond shit stirring. High profile members of this community are often subjected to death threats online, if they are really 'lucky' they have been known to be sent bullets through the post. Less than 200 years ago they were being starved out of their lands by colonialists. It is less than 100 years since their homeland gained independence from its colonial masters. Part of it remains in dispute and a long running campaign of political violence which has cost over 3000 lives still hasn't entirely ended.

Yes things are different here to the USA. Have you any idea how insulting it is to tell Irish women living in the UK that their feminism is some kind of 'product of colonialism' just because they have white skin?

Fascinating how this thread suddenly has nothing to do with the Alison Phipps podcast - which attempts to label radical feminism (internationalist in focus and taking account of the impact of social class in anti-racist work) as "white feminism" in a derogatory manner, while itself being the absolute epitome of (class privileged, neoliberal) "white feminism" itself.

Curious.

Do the the people who criticise "white feminism" also criticise "male anti-racism" or "able-bodied gay rights activism"? If not, why not?

Well said, Arnold. And can I add to your list - gerrymandering of electoral districts to ensure no representation; closed shop for many professions; exclusion from law enforcement. I had to explain elsewhere the other day why "Tim" may be misinterpreted if one is talking to a Brit in an area where sectarianism is a factor. And one American told me that she didn't give a shit and would use what terms she liked when she liked. This is exactly why imposing a US lens onto Britain is counter-productive. Not only is it unhelpful in addressing the UK's actual and specific problems with racism, it elides vital axes of discrimination that also exist here.

One major example is where GC movements or prominent people in them decide to partner with people

GC feminism is a grassroots movement - that encompasses all manner of people, coalitions, loose coalitions, active and specific campaign groups..... It is not like an organised political party with a manifesto which you sign up to.

All such movements will involve any number of actors with whom you don't necessarily share common sympathy on all matters. However, in these febrile days it seems that growing intolerance of disagreement, and a seeming pressing need for everyone to sing from exactly the same hymn sheet is the defining characteristic.

It will not happen here, though. you cannot demand total compliance, and then castigate all in sweeping ways when one dopes something you don't like or approve of.

This is where intersectional & narrowly defined identity politics has got us. We were never more divided and tribalistic than we now are.

Lang, yes TIM is not one I use myself due to sectarian connotations. It's a bit of a shame in some respects as I can see why people find it a useful construct but here it already has a (derogatory) meaning which makes it un helpful in the specific cultural context. It would just be taken the wrong way.

"....there is a persistent strain of what masquerades as radical feminism – led by women who are predominantly white, middle class, and heterosexual – which aims to dismantle the gendered inequalities experienced by certain women whilst clinging to the privileges brought to them by hierarchies of race and class. It ought to go without saying that weaponising racism and classism against women who hold less social power than you do is a fundamental contradiction of feminist principles, yet this pattern of behaviour is rife within the British feminist movement."

Doesn't Claire just say it better?

I said niche but I should have (or of - i forget sorry lang ) said "otherness" and "othering".

"To be Other on multiple counts is profoundly challenging, but it also creates rich standpoints and fertile ground for movement building. I almost wish that it were possible to bring white middle class feminists en masse to a standpoint rooted in Otherness, even briefly, so that they would be more open to empathising and connecting with those Audre Lorde knew to “stand outside the circle of this society’s definition of acceptable women; those of us who have been forged in the crucibles of difference – those of us who are poor, who are lesbians, who are Black, who are older…” I’d like to share the joy in what Otherness makes possible with white middle class feminists because, having felt it, practicing cruelty and domination against women with less power would be at least become harder to countenance. Replicating hierarchies would, perhaps, lose its appeal if a true vision of radical alternatives could be witnessed. Or maybe that’s foolish talk. Either way, I’m glad it’s a hypothetical scenario – if white middle class feminists chose cruelty and dominance over kindness and connection, it would crush what hope I have left for this movement."