Sexual assault in books: Philip Pullman [Contains spoilers - Edited by MNHQ]

[Loopytiles]

Previously enjoyed His Dark Materials, also the Book of Dust prequel, but was unsure whether the rape in Book of Dust was highlighting sexual violence, or gratuitous.

There is also sexual assault on the main female character, Lyra, in the new book. This time it did seem gratuitous.

A tutor, 11 years or so older than the Lyra, “falls in love” with her, and reminisces about her scent when he taught her.

This has brought to mind aspects of the first trilogy: a poster on another thread suggests that Lyra is a “Mary Sue”.

Wondering what others think.

What’s a Mary Sue?

A Mary Sue is a fanfic term for a character who is essentially a cypher for the author, a character either too perfect or too cardboard, without any of the original features which would mark out a fully realized character.

Reading with interest, btw, but unable to really contribute as I'm not much of a Pullman fan.

Thanks for the massive spoiler about Book of Dust with no warning attached!

I’ve only read the original trilogy so I can’t address the portrayal of sexual assault in the other books.

As for the term “Mary sue” it is usually applied in a sexist way. Very, VERY rarely is a character referred to in this way male (the term is literally gendered). Lyra is not at all a Mary Sue. She has flaws, she is imperfect in many ways. Bad things happen to her. Any series that has strong female leads will be accused of this.

Should have put on a spoiler alert, guess the thread title itself is a spoiler for anyone who’s read the Dark Materials trilogy, which doesn’t include sexual assault.

It’s not a massive spoiler - there is so much more to the book than that.

Can see that FWRLurker, and agree that Lyra is an interesting and “rounded” character in the original trilogy.

She seemed less real in the latest book, although that could have been her circumstances/response.

I agree with assessment of a Mary Sue as a concept, btw. I mostly see it applied as an insult when fanboys get pissy about a female character in general.

Having said that, I have definitely read fanfic stories with Mary Sue type characters that were quite obviously the authors writing themselves into the story as sexy feisty women, and I know that quite a few of those authors weren't women themselves. It's a term that sprang from fanfic and is probably best left there.

I've always found there to be an uncomfortable gratuitousness about Pullman's writing of violence of all sorts.

Could this be a case of a man being able to see little girls as fully realized humans because he isn't sexually interested in them but being unable to see grown women the same way because his attitude towards women and sex won't allow that? It's a sadly common thing, men who can create interesting and well rounded girl characters but for whom anyone female who's post puberty falls squarely into the "she boobed boobily down the stairs while admiring her own nipples" category.

Yes I saw the Mary Sue comment.

It wasn't originally meant that way (I have a friend who knew the woman who wrote the original Mary Sue parody of bad fanfic) but has come to be used in a deeply sexist way, as an attack on any female character who is heroine of a rollicking good adventure story. (If you stop to think about it pretty much every male protagonist of adventure stories aimed at men ticks all the boxes for a Mary Sue - Bond, Bourne, Reacher, the whole fucking cast of the Marvel movies - but that's okay because men are allowed to be heroes... Grr.)

Lyra in any case doesn't come across as a Mary Sue.

But you've reminded me I must catch up on the sequels. Please tell me the sexual assault isn't gratuitous - eg cheap plot device or cheap way of adding a tragic back story. I will be so disappointed in Pullman if he's done this.

Barbara, fabulous point about Marvel heroes, and I say that as a Marvel fan. God, the sexist idiots who ripped Captain Marvel to shreds as a 'Mary Sue' when Tony fucking Stark and Steve Rogers exist.

Posting any kind of spoiler for a book that has only just come out is a really shitty thing to do, you should have put a warning in the title, or got one added once it was pointed out!

I've been saving it for when I have time to enjoy it and now I'll be waiting for that to happen, it won't be as much fun.

You didn't even include the book or the title, he has written things other than His Dark Materials.

Bah! Pissed off about the spoiler aspect too.

Please tell me the sexual assault isn't gratuitous - eg cheap plot device or cheap way of adding a tragic back story. I will be so disappointed in Pullman if he's done this.

This. Annoyed that I opened this thread, as loved HDM, introduced my eldest to the books, and are watching the series.

Now not sure whether to carry on ...

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Marking as yes, true. Will post tomorrow

I don't want to carry on with the spoilers but some of the concepts Phillip Pullman has now introduced as being of concern in his world seemed rather topical. As for the attack, it didn't read as gratuitous to me at all. Throughout Secret Commonwealth I felt that Pullman was trying to write how a female character would be treated and how she would feel, it doesn't succeed everywhere and people will criticise aspects but Pullman is acknowledging what reality is like for women. Am intrigued as to where the next book will go. There are plenty of complex older female characters in SC too.

There is a moment between Will and a priest later on that is a bit ... queasy ...

I am not a huge fan of Pullman, tho I'm watching the series

There’s an documentary on BBC IPlayer now (from a few years back) called Philip Pullman Angels and Daemons. Alan yentob does his usual non-journalistic treat the celeb with kid gloves kind of fawny interview.

So at one point Pullman volunteers something like ‘I knew the main character had to be a girl’. I was thinking, right OK interesting, carry on. Yentob says basically nothing and they just move on.
Anyway- worth a watch for some of thoughts on story telling and novel writing. (daemons are a great device, because you can get a single person having a conversation and easily ‘hear what they are thinking’ in speech.)

Have asked MN for a spoiler alert!

Agree with MindtheMinotaur, have read all the Lyra books and I think Philip Pullman does a much better job of writing female characters than most men.

I don't think Lyra is a Mary Sue. I will refrain from listing plot points to support my argument....

Samwell Tarly is one of the most egregious Mary Sues I've ever seen.

I think the title needs a spoiler warning. I opened this thinking it was going to be referring to something he had said on the topic in interview/comments and haven’t finished reading the books yet. I’m reading them in order so I now know two things that are going to happen in the stories, even if they aren’t main plot points.

Samwell Tarly is one of the most egregious Mary Sues I've ever seen.

I'll see your Tarly and raise you Jon Snow!

I'm about an eighth of the way into The Secret Common wealth so that spoiler impacts me - but never mind.

I'd point out that Lyra is no longer a child in this book; she's a 20-year-old student, so sexual assault is probably a pretty realistic event for Pullman to include, sadly.

He can be a bit self-indulgent, and this book is not for children; the language that crops up occasinally is a rather clunky signal that he expects his readers to have grown up.

I suspect the reason for having a female protagonist was as simple as avoiding the Harry Potter comparison.

I know it's flawed, I see its shortcomings but it's a great read all the same!