Sexual assault in books: Philip Pullman [Contains spoilers - Edited by MNHQ]

[Loopytiles]

Previously enjoyed His Dark Materials, also the Book of Dust prequel, but was unsure whether the rape in Book of Dust was highlighting sexual violence, or gratuitous.

There is also sexual assault on the main female character, Lyra, in the new book. This time it did seem gratuitous.

A tutor, 11 years or so older than the Lyra, “falls in love” with her, and reminisces about her scent when he taught her.

This has brought to mind aspects of the first trilogy: a poster on another thread suggests that Lyra is a “Mary Sue”.

Wondering what others think.

If Lyra is a Mary Sue then the term really has lost all meaning.

That sounds awful. I've been reading His Dark Materials with my 10 year old. I'm guessing the new trilogy is not suitable for a 10 year old then?

I haven’t got to the sexual assault bit yet, but given the themes and language in The Secret Commonwealth I probably wouldn’t recommend it to anyone under 15. La Belle Sauvage might be ok for a bright 10 year old (but it’s a while since I read it).

So at one point Pullman volunteers something like ‘I knew the main character had to be a girl’. I was thinking, right OK interesting, carry on. Yentob says basically nothing and they just move on

What point are you trying to make? Pullman created a terrific female character. If your comment this is some sort of smear attempt at him it is disgraceful. As indeed are the posts reducing her to a "Mary Sue"

Oh another one here who could have done without the spoiler.

Portrayal of sexual assault in art is important though - I know it has impacted me -“groomed” me if you like.

Thanks for the spoiler alert MNHQ, am sorry about that.

I don’t think posters are agreeing with the Mary Sue thing, a poster on a TV thread said she’d heard it and was mulling it over, in particular with regard to this most recent book.

I’ve read a lot of gratuitous violence in fiction and now actively avoid it. I was unsure about the rape in the last book, the threat and fear was a huge part of the story, but there was almost nothing about the character, Alice, afterwards. The attack on Lyra in this book did, to me, seem gratuitous.

The attack on Lyra in this book did, to me, seem gratuitous

You have already been told about spoilers- stop it. This is a really unthinking thread given it's a new, very long hardback book. If you want to talk about gratuitous attacks in films and literature make a thread about that and discuss works which people will be familiar with.

Stop moaning about spoilers - MNHQ have added a warning, if you don’t want to discuss the book then come off the thread.

I love His Dark Materials but have been annoyed with Philip Pullman since his patronising 'why can't women just be kind to the trans' twitter contribution to the whole debate. This is a very vocal atheist who's ok with making sure everyone knows god's not real but we should indulge this particular delusion because otherwise we'll hurt men's feelings.

Who appointed you thread monitor? The OP was told about spoilers yet banged on as her insightful (not) literary criticism is more important.

And in any case the thread is about Pullman not the book (did you misread that?) The negative criticism of him seems to be "he's a man- he wrote about a girl- he must be a creep" I'm paraphrasing before you point out that those words haven't been literally used.

There’s a spoiler warning on the thread now, Carol, and have apologised about not having one to start off with.

SPOILER so skip if you like

Lyra isn't a Mary Sue, and that fact that she seems stiffer and not as realised now is because she is separated from her Daemon.
The newest trilogy isn't for kids.

I have read the sexual assault scene, it doesn't seem gratuitous to me. You can see Lyras anger and distress about it. It's a common occurrence sadly, not unusual experience for a twenty year old student.
Interesting comments about the niqab also.

I think Pullman is edging away from the pure materialist stance he had at one time. Or has he really only been criticising the institution of religion rather than the notion of a personal spirituality? I'm not sure after reading this last one.
I haven't read any of his SM comments so am only basing this on his books.

There are many things in the books I like, but in the latest one some things I dislike or am unsure about, with respect to his plot choices,

The Malcolm infatuation with Lyra is ick, particularly the passages about his tutoring of her.

Agree with the PP that sexual violence happens lots in RL and Lyra’s world is unequal.

Agreeing with @7Days

I don't think it's gratuitous and I think it's well written and representative of the dangers lone women face - especially one without a Daemon in that world

It never occurred to me that anyone would think The Book of Dust was a children's book. The children who enjoyed His Dark Materials will be grown up by now.

I don’t find Malcolm’s feelings for Lyra particularly icky. She is 20 and he is (i think) 31, so we are talking about two adults with a not especially wide age gap. Yes, he mentions having had feelings for her when he was tutoring her, but he doesn’t act on them.

With Book of Dust posters thought PP was clunkily setting up a future Malcolm/Lyra love plot.

I think age gaps of that size at those ages is ick. 20 is hugely different from 30. Even more so if the older party knew the younger one from childhood and/or tutored them.

Malcom changed Lyra’s nappies but then decided she was an object of attraction - just no. It reads really really creepily.

And I was very disappointed with the second half of the new book - it started well and I was really excited to see adult Lyra, and then as soon as they landed in Europe it turned into endless pointless musings. Also, in ten years no one will remember the many current events referenced, like the water cannons, so it might not age well either.

Lyra’s treatment wandering about Europe seemed really inconsistent with the ideas in the first book about daemons - seeing the little boy without his daemon was so shocking it made her feel sick and horrified, and she was freaked out by the witches too - but half the people Lyra encounters don’t even really notice that she’s daemonless. Some people harass her, but no one seems to have that visceral reaction that Lyra has in book 1.

Sam Tarly and Jon Snow should bow before Luke Skywalker, king of egregious author self-inserts. Didn’t George Lucas admit as much? And yet it’s Rey from the sequel trilogy that male Star Wars fans moan about being a Mary Sue

I put down His Dark Materials at the scenes where Lyra gets off with the boy. Philip Pulman has been on my radar since then. Lyra was obviously for his gratification, which is a feature of several fantasy books I'd read before that. Tiny childlike women as sex objects, and Pulman made no pretence that Lyra was anything but a child.

The Amber Spyglass scenes were about young sexuality, agree that some of the descriptions of Lyra could be read in that way, although the content was from both the young characters’ perspectives.

The whole “Eve”/Lyra theme is pretty dubious IMO.

Agreed about the inconsistency about people lacking daemons.
It should be a grotesque, almost macabre sight - or maybe it is but has just been normalised? Maybe we are supposed to shocked that nobody is shocked. Just thinking aloud.

Pullman was also careful to have Lyra say that she and Will only kissed as they were so young, and the Gyptians confess that they felt uneasy about leaving them together in privacy. So at least we know where he stands on that criticism.

I dont know about the Malcolm and Lyra thing. They are almost reaching maturity in parallel. I know, it's often a creeper excuse, but I think it comes across ok. The whole underpinning of the books is about becoming a wholly realised, mature and flourishing adult... it's not a creepy insert that it's happening to Malcolm too.

But Malcolm is 31 and an academic. V different.

But with the daemon thing, some people do have strong reactions...

But I guess with the experiments about separation in the intervening years it has become more common? and it's still a very niche and underground thing...

if they aren't talking to people they can pretend the daemon is a small thing hideen in a pocket

One area of the book that I found interesting was that lots of young, people and students had all read a book and then on the strength of it were subscribing to the ridiculous belief that daemons aren't real. This belief was a major part of the falling out between Lyra and Pan.

It raised parallels with me of hip youngsters who choose to cling to ideas that are obviously untrue...

As for the assault, I would have found it hard to believe she could have moved through that world unscathed.

I found it very interesting how he portrayed Lyra trying to become ' invisible' to avoid the male gaze.