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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans kids

327 replies

Macareaux · 02/11/2019 12:17

This is an interesting article in a US publication about trans kids and rapid onset gender dysphoria.

After considering many aspects of the issue and anecdotal reports and data, the writer comes to the the conclusion that the distilled problem is that there is no way of determining which children are truly trans and which are not.

If we are to progress then sooner or later these mainstream writers are going to have to have the courage to say that there is no such thing as a transgender child.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/11/andrew-sullivan-hard-questions-gender-transitions-for-young.html

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Datun · 07/11/2019 19:30

*back up

BeMoreMagdalen · 07/11/2019 19:32

"I have all the links and evidence to back up what I'm saying, but they go to another school..."

AFairlyHardAvocado · 07/11/2019 19:32

@BeMoreMagdalen

You win the Internet today Grin

Datun · 07/11/2019 19:36

"I have all the links and evidence to back up what I'm saying, but they go to another school..."

Perfect.

BarbaraStrozzi · 07/11/2019 19:39

I keep dipping into this thread.

The main subject is massively important and depressing - the rise of affirmation only treatment pathways which (as GIDS themselves have now admitted) creates a one way conveyor belt from puberty blockers to cross sex hormones to irreversible surgery, all with risk of side effects and life long medical consequences, started in children who might well desist if allowed to go through puberty.

But the frack sideshow is hilarious.

I'm moderately well known in my little corner of science. I could quite easily point people to a few reputable popular science accounts of what I do and a handful of open access peer reviewed key papers in my field. I could do that without losing anonymity.

Any scientist could in fact do this (well maybe not if working for DSTL or GCHQ, but barring that...)

I call bullshit.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 07/11/2019 19:41

well I for one am convinced by Frack's discussions and will hence forth believe anything simply because they direct me to do so

seems legit to me

and no discussion about your 'white feminism' podcast Frack? Sad I quoted the podcast and @-ed you as requested and everything

Sad Sad Sad

NotBadConsidering · 07/11/2019 20:20

@FrackOff

a. cross sex hormones are not available to children in the uk
b. cross sex hormones don't render people unable to orgasm
c. it is massively scrutinize

(Interesting use of the American spelling of scrutinise for someone in the UK...)

a) yes they are available to people under the age of 18, and even if they weren’t, I didn’t ask about them being given to children, I asked about their role in the pathway that is initiated in childhood

b) if a male child’s sexual organs have never been allowed to mature and they then take oestrogen with a main side effect of reducing libido, how do they have an orgasm? How does an 18 year male for example, masturbate their 11 year old prepubescent penis to a state of erection and orgasm? It’s just not possible. Jazz Jennings is on public record on the TV show saying an orgasm has never happened and there is no libido.

c) scrutinised? By who? And what is scrutinised? If doctors prescribing the drugs are told by the patient they have no sexual function, do they stop the blocker and allow sexual maturity to happen? You’ve already said you don’t like the scrutiny of the BMJ because it’s not “helpful” so who scrutinises and what do they scrutinise?

Reference for the Jazz Jennings claim:

people.com/tv/jazz-jennings-talks-sexual-stuff-orgasm-libido-doctor-before-gender-confirmation-surgery/

JanesKettle · 07/11/2019 20:37

Extraordinary claims - like, say, the claim that my natal male son is actually my natal female daughter, and should be treated as such - requires extraordinary evidence.

What a shame that it exists, apparently, somewhere 'out there', but no-one can ever provide it for me...

God I tire of TRA bullshit.

BeMoreMagdalen · 07/11/2019 21:41

Frack has a new thread with the compelling evidence, if anyone would like to read. I'm sure Frack will be along directly to link it.

NotBadConsidering · 10/11/2019 11:21

Bump

MoobaaMoobaa · 10/11/2019 11:27

07/11/2019 21:41BeMoreMagdalen

Frack has a new thread with the compelling evidence, if anyone would like to read. I'm sure Frack will be along directly to link it

Accept it's been deleted.........

BarbaraStrozzi · 10/11/2019 11:27

Frack's thread was very helpful, I thought. She posted a number of links to abstracts of articles, which other posters then usefully linked to public-domain copies of the whole articles. There were other articles on there, some supporting Frack's position, others challenging it, which is what healthy debate looks like.

Sadly it has been pulled, because of alleged doxxing.

Interestingly, someone did mention who they thought Frack was early in that thread, I told them Frack didn't want to be identified, and they immediately had their own post deleted.

Later on, a new poster appeared from nowhere, and repeatedly suggested possible real-life IDs, despite regulars telling them not to. @MNHQ I think you've been played by someone deliberately trying to sabotage the thread. It would have been far better to delete the relevant messages (a handful or so) and lock the thread, because the links were useful, and people had put a lot of effort into it.

TL:DR - @MNHQ please have a rethink and look at reinstating and locking, with suitable deletions.

OldCrone · 10/11/2019 11:40

I'll repost the links to Frack's articles that I posted on the other thread. But there was also a lot of interesting and useful discussion which is now lost.

This is one of the articles. This one is open access, so you can see the whole article without needing a login.

The experiences of gender diverse and trans children and youth considering and initiating medical interventions in Canadian gender-affirming speciality clinics

BarbaraStrozzi · 10/11/2019 11:42

Thanks OldCrone.

(Just thinking how odd that would sound if read aloud - but console yourself with the thought that while you may be an old crone, I've been dead for about 4 centuries! Grin)

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/11/2019 11:45

I've missed the whole thread and it sounds like it was a very useful one. What a shame.

OldCrone · 10/11/2019 11:46

Another article. This is the older one (Zucker et al, 2011). Of particular interest is that it appears to make the case for transitioning children as a 'cure' for homosexuality.

Again, you should be able to see the whole article using this link.

Puberty-Blocking Hormonal Therapy for Adolescents with Gender Identity Disorder: A Descriptive Clinical Study

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/11/2019 11:47

I'd want a longer term follow up of that study for a start oldcrone.

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/11/2019 11:48

(The first one you posted, cross post)

BarbaraStrozzi · 10/11/2019 11:51

Yes the first study needs to be supplemented by a longitudinal studies into outcomes over decades, covering both qualitative self-reports of how the participants feel about their transition, and long term follow-up into physical side effects of the drugs regimes.

OldCrone · 10/11/2019 11:57

Another one of Frack's articles. This one does require a login and I can't find a free version. So like most other people on here I have no way of reading the whole thing.

Balancing in the margins of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non-conforming youth seeking puberty suppression

One of the authors is described as a PhD student, and I did find his masters thesis online. It has a similar title to this paper (which is why it came up in my search for an open access version of the paper) so there may be some overlap.

Balancing in the margins of gender: How clinical psychologists relate to puberty suppression when working with gender variant youth

NotBadConsidering · 10/11/2019 11:58

If I remember correctly the first article was in a vague publication, but there was a good review of it here, where similarities are made with the Atlantic article which is linked a few pages back, particularly the homophobia driving a good degree of these decisions:

digest.bps.org.uk/2019/02/25/norwegian-clinical-psychologists-reveal-the-complexities-involved-in-working-with-children-and-teens-experiencing-gender-dysphoria/

OldCrone · 10/11/2019 11:59

I'd want a longer term follow up of that study for a start

Yes, that was discussed on the other thread. It would be good if MNHQ could reinstate it with the offending posts removed.

OldCrone · 10/11/2019 12:07

The other paper Frack linked to was this one. No open access link again.

Retrospective Study of the Management of Childhood and Adolescent Gender Identity Disorder Using Medroxyprogesterone Acetate

I'd like to see the full article, because the abstract seems to say "GnRH analogues are expensive and have some adverse effects, so we've used a small group of teenagers as test subjects for another drug which is great because it's cheaper".

NotBadConsidering · 10/11/2019 12:10

Yes I wasn’t quite sure what the hell was the point of that one at all. An article showing it’s possible to medically trans kids on the cheap? How does that back up it’s the right thing to do or not, as was claimed? Confused

ferrier · 10/11/2019 12:13

No evidence based stuff but a full page in the Sunday Times today.

Trans kids
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