Glasgow Conservatoire accused of ableism and transphobia

[Igneococcus]

Can they not see how ludicrous this will appear to anybody outside their bubble?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/diversity-row-after-conservatoire-is-accused-of-ableism-and-transphobia-m77wr030m?shareToken=5de1751afcada56a85ddd52141df3ecf

And I think the "it's just gone a bit mad" aspect arises largely from it finally being discussed by people (eg middle-class university students) who until very recently haven't needed to contemplate their own identity at all, and who have grown up largely surrounded by people exactly like themselves, and who don't really have any experience or understanding on how to do this.

Totally agree with this

joyfullittlehippo I’m sorry but has anyone actually read the article, or just having a knee-jerk reaction to the red flag to a bull word that is “transphobia.”

Have you RTFT? There's been nuanced discussion here looking at the letter the students wrote and their precise complaints, no one has defended the grabbing a student incident, criticism is part of the course and context is everything in judging the other incidents.

The place is fully immersed in identity politics after all, so claiming that the accused tutor is transphobic for addressing a male presenting in a stereotypically male way as a man is ridiculous. Anyone can claim to be anything but we're under no obligation to manifest a belief we don't share. That doesn't mean we're phobic.

Thank you furrytoebean for your insightful comments shedding light on the course as a former student. Much of what you are saying rings true for me from other courses involving creative endeavours as DuMondeB also pointed out in her area of study. Certainly as a writer, the experience was similarly painful at times and not just for me but the others, too. It hurts when you pour your heart into your art and your tutor finds your work wanting. I am a better writer for it though.

Having read the letter and the articles, I got the impression that the complainants had no problem being disrespectful to others, including fellow students (objecting to being told that they should not walk out of a fellow student's performance for instance - given the many many things these students have complained about as intolerable that seems eminently sensible).

Looking at the whole thing, they sent in 100+ pages of complaint and yet the investigation resulted in a mere six instances of the staff member not coming up to standard (bearing in mind that this standard may well be far higher than or much different from what is normal elsewhere judging from what furrytoebean has shared).

So, no I'm not willing to defend monstrous behaviour but I am unconvinced that what we have here is monstrous behaviour. Furthermore, having followed this debate, knowing what goes on from university staff and students and having watched the documentaries about that college in the US, these students idea of

institutional violence
structural racism
systemic abuse
structural oppression

does not meet any definition of these serious issues. FYI, their proposed solutions include some that contributed to the collapse of the college in the States.

I don't automatically believe anyone's claims of mistreatment. I believe you have a right to be heard, however, and I'm willing to listen.

The Conservatoire seems to have done just that and come to a position of upholding some complaints but not others. The claims of a lack of communication during the complaints procedure should be looked at, but it seems to me that nothing less than complete surrender and abasement will satisfy. So no I'm never going to look at a story like that and believe every claim made.

So, no I'm not willing to defend monstrous behaviour but I am unconvinced that what we have here is monstrous behaviour.

This.

I don't automatically believe anyone's claims of mistreatment. I believe you have a right to be heard, however, and I'm willing to listen.

Also this.

these students idea of

institutional violence
structural racism
systemic abuse
structural oppression

does not meet any definition of these serious issues

I would agree with this and would further add given what furrytoebean has told us about the specifics of the course that these students do not seem very willing to adjust their thinking away from pat soundbites even when specifically shown the realities of the particular environment they find themselves in.

There are some legitimate complaints within that letter. True. They need dealing with properly. That Times article where Stonewall Scotland have offered to meet with them is laughable. They can see an opportunity to offer one of their training packages can’t they - KERRCHING £££!

This sort of thing does get messy, because everyone reading about it
is going to see their own prejudices either insulted or reinforced.
There probably are some spoilt, whiny attention seekers among the complainants.
There probably are some legitimate objections to some of the behaviour of lecturers/teachers (whenever someone complains of abusive behaviour from a person in authority who is 'charismatic' or a good teacher in many ways, there's always people popping up to say, well, I cried myself sick and had a nervous breakdown after said teacher told me I was a spoilt piece of shit with no talent but I learned and growed from it, honest...).

Some people from minority/disadvantaged groups might come across (or even be) oversensitive, touchy, self-obsessed shit-stirrers but this might have a fair bit to do with having spent most of their lives being patronized, excluded, talked over, insulted and told they lack a sense of humour, etc.

And some white, straight, comfortably-off people really lose their shit at the merest hint that they might be treating members of a minority group unfairly.

What on earth is wrong with being a white 'cis gender' heterosexual? Wouldn't the vast majority of people in this country fit that description?

Surely pointing this out in such a disparaging way is discriminatory?

I can believe some of the things reportedly said from RCS staff. I won’t say how I know as it’s outing but I’ve heard very similarly dubious comments made to other students. That said in the context of art criticism, anything goes and sometimes the harsher the better. I balked at the abortion performance piece in terms of cliche and taste. The mispronouncing Cantonese complaint is scraping the barrel and if you look like a bloke and don’t give clues as to your identity Then you’re he until proven otherwise.

I actually thought it was one of the funniest articles I’ve read in a while. Properly highlights how off the wall students are becoming, particularly in the arts.

Drama is a physical thing and you can’t teach or learn without an element of touch being involved. It’s in the moment, it’s about communication on numerous levels. It’s about movement and relationships.

If teachers have to double-think every little thing they say and do in their critiques of student work, they will not be able to respond in a way which best serves those students. Drama texts are full of triggering content - it is at the heart of the very nature of performance: conflict. You need to be robust and able to deal with it.

The ‘unpaid emotional labour’ of academic staff right now is off the scale. It is a minefield.

Hmm, this is one of those posts that crops up now and again which makes me think people see Mumsnet and think it’s their mum’s net.

Have you cast your eyes over the rest of the thread or any other MN threads? Do you notice how long your post is compared with other posts? You’re expecting rather a lot of effort from people to engage with your issues.

Have you read the thread? Are there any points of the thread you would specifically like to address?

I’ve struggled through your wall of text and offer a few thoughts.

• A teacher moving onto another class is not indicative of abuse. I remember as a child missing my teacher during the summer holidays. As an adult, I also remember missing my obstetrician when I didn’t need her any more. You learn to distinguish between professional and personal relationships.
• Incidents can be found to have occurred but a reasonable person would not think they are abuse.
• You’re happy to have ruined a woman’s livelihood. Please bear in mind these righteous feelings when you are out of work and struggling, which you will be as a grad of the Conservatoire. (Thank goodness for The Bank of Mummy and Daddy!)
• I wonder what life would have been like for me and my peers if they stood up for us - yes you would all be Alan Cummings if it wasn’t for your evil teachers. Hold on to that belief.
• I’ve no idea the context of your teacher’s exposition of her trauma from childhood rape by a family member but I’m disturbed at your thinking that that abuse in any way equates to what you consider to be your abuse by her. Can you relate her feelings to those of your friend who wanted to explore the emotions of her abortion through art?

Even though I’m not your mum, here’s a couple of tips for adult life I’ve given my own kids:

• If you don’t engage with people whose views don’t reflect your beliefs and values, you won’t change anyone’s mind.
• At 18 you are an adult, a young adult but not a child.
• If you want a person to treat you in a certain way because you are an adult, you have to treat them the same way. It’s childish to see yourself as a complex, nuanced individual but to see all adults as denatured parent figures.

children for a lot longer then they needed to be - you got something right.

And yes, I would say this to your face.

TL:DR Grow up.

On another point £73k in debt for a performing arts degree is insane, unless you are planning on having it paid off by your parents. Why did you think this made sense?

Students are equipped with multiple skills, not only in performance-making but also in facilitation and working in communities, to create powerful performances everywhere from hospices, prisons and schools to swimming pools, beaches and building sites.

How much are you aiming to earn creating powerful performances in swimming pools?

I am exhausted from reading that. To be honest, it does come across as quite self justifying, self pitying and very young. As Flora says, you are a young adult, not a child.

I will give you the advice I am giving my children already now (the oldest is 11).

There are a lot of people out there that aren’t very nice, who you disagree with and who will not like you. If you think about it, you may not like them. It is possible to co-exist anyway, just try to be polite and don’t expect too much.

There will be a few people in your student life and working life who are very good at what they do. They are likely to also be very self absorbed, difficult and sometimes unpleasant. Try to be useful to them and learn from them. They usually respond to anyone who constantly tries to excel, but will not bother with anyone who doesn’t. Avoid working with the nice, useless people.

If something bothers you, call it out immediately, but in a joking way. “Oups, jargon here is almost sexual harassment, I’d better read up on the complaint procedure.” “On a 1-10 scale of cultural insensitivity, that was a 9.5”. Followed by “ can I get you a beer/coffee” or leading the conversation back to where it was. It actually works and most people will respect you for drawing a line where you are uncomfortable and doing it in a good, friendly way, without all this unsafe, feelings business.

When do I get paid for the emotional labour I just expended reading that wall of self-pitying waffle?

I feel like I’ve acccidentally opened someone’s journal this morning

What a lot of words you’ve used there to justify your hounding of this woman. It seems like you managed to get her fired, but you’re still not done! A year down the line you’re still googling this, and still lecturing more women about your terribly important feelings. And as for thinking that Mumsnet is “an Isolated right wing community”- don’t be silly.

But thank you for bumping this fascinating thread that I’d missed the first time round.

The saddest thing is (and this is why I already trying to coach 10 and 11 year olds in this) is that it will make this person’s life very difficult.

I worked for years in an incredibly sexist, male dominated environment. There were people who were shouting at others, emotional people, people on the spectrum, really all sorts. Nobody ever objected to someone calling things out in a friendly way (well, they could make some snide comments, but that was the end of it). However, once somebody (who seemed perfectly fine at the time) started complaining to HR or managers after having “thought about their feelings for a while”, that was usually it. People started to be incredibly polite, but nobody really wanted to work with them. No sane person wants to be hit with an HR report for a behaviour they didn’t realise came across wrong.

I don’t know how this translates into arts, but I have to say, I watched my hair dresser choose hair models once (whilst he was cutting my hair). He didn’t go for the prettiest, but for the “pretty enough” who was happy, friendly and had “good energy” as he put it. Even when you choose on looks, it appears people want to work with people that are easy to get along with.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

I can't find this open letter though

This?

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2728437857207663&id=100001244253416 Archive (archive.li/2O135)

It was literally signed by 5 people ...

Nah. last signature is 'and other anonymous student voices' .

Could be nobody else, one other person or a hundred others.

Message deleted by MNHQ. Poster has deregged and won't be back to engage

Judging from the responses of those who read whatever it was prior to deletion, MNHQ has done the rest of us a favour.

The students complained that staff were “all white and all cis-gender”, a term for people whose gender identity matches their biological sex. The letter said: “Most staff members fit a white, cis-gender, able-bodied and heterosexual mould.“

What the actual...??? Why on gods green earth would the sexuality of your lecturer make a hit of difference- let alone how they think about themself (and how do the students know what Dr Smith does when they get home)?

Seriously - I was a student in Glasgow and students were generally pretty down to earth and normal back then. Have these students not got some music practice to do?

Oh for goodness sake, Ewan, have the courage of your convictions!

I’m not sure that deleting and deregistering your long and rambling diatribe after a whole five comments does anything to improve anyone’s perception of your ability to take feedback on board, a year or eighteen months after the event.

I now think more than ever that the lecturers weren’t the problem.

This proves my point.

Who on earth would want to work with these people? Can you imagine the daily frustrations, perceived insults and sulking if constructive criticism wasn’t given in exactly the right and most sensitive way. I would have thought that arts would be a place were you really needed to sell yourself and make people like you?

I realise that I am coming across as a tad harsh, but I never had a problem working with people others perceived difficult. And I protected and helped junior female colleagues (and male) if I saw anything a rational person would be uncomfortable with - or if they spoke to me about something bothering them. I just cannot stand sulking and nursing of perceived slights - and trying to cancel people who may be much more talented than yourself.

I went to art school later - they wouldn’t last a week there! It was rough sometimes and the lecturers would tell you if your work was rubbish!

I gather I missed a very public bed wetting from a toddler who wants a bikkie for ruining a woman's livelihood?

The combination of piety and viciousness is very Puritan/Spanish Inquisition, isn't it?

I only read it once but I remember a bit where he says a lecturer talked about being raped. He said first ‘how did she know what the triggers of her students were’ and ‘hearing this forever links me to the rapist’. He also said something about being 73k in debt from the course and having to spend at least that in therapy to get over it.

It was astonishing 😂

Anyway this is of course paraphrased from my memory

I particularly enjoyed the bit about the lecturer forcing them to affirm her beliefs without evidence.