The Upcoming Election

[TerfTalk]

I guess we will get the manifestos in a few days, which should be interesting...

All I remember from the previous elections was far too much: "I am in the X party. There are tons of people in the X party that are gender critical, but they can't say anything because of A, B, C."

Personally, I am spoiling my ballot unless any of the parties (other than UKIP) take a gender critical stance. I am in a Labour safe seat, so it won't make any difference to my area.

However I would like to reach out to my local Lib Dem candidate and ask for their views on women's sex based rights. Can anyone recommend any good resources?

i think you'll find the Lib- Dems the worst in many respects. It is an essential part of their Liberal philosophy that they should support everyone's right to freely express themselves. Not that GC people don't support that right too - but the problem is the Liberals will tend to go back to their first principles - and ignore any conflict of interest - as it effects women and children in this instance. They just wasnt to be "nice".

That's my experience of local Liberals. I see them as a bunch of well meaning do-gooders, in the main - with no real fire or passion in their belly. And don't forget what Lynne Featherstone said about not wanting G.C women to vote for them.

They just want to be nice

So there you have it, in the eyes of the Labour Party women with the temerity to talk about their rights are even worse than the BNP

Even some of the most vocal hard-bitten, shouty, old school Socialists are afraid to have a view on trans ideology. They steer well clear.

What Alltheprettyhorses said.

That's quite a reach there, Moggy to go from spoiling ballots to voting UKIP. Is that the advice you give other oppressed groups?

If every leader was anti-semitic, for example, would you tell Jewish people who were treated so despicably and standing up for the right not to be abused to vote for UKIP too?

You should go into politics (maybe you are already) because you are doing a stellar job of brushing aside womens' concerns and fears and telling us to ignore rampant misogyny and the facilitation of child abuse.

If you really believe everything everybody writes on here (about counting votes and having a giggle over spoiled papers for example) then that's up to you. But at election time the dishonesty and desperation of all parties reaches new lows and I will always question what motivates others to behave in particular ways.

It's a shame people are so willing to spoil a ballot. These people will throw everyone else under the bus because of an obsession with who has what genitals

Spoiling your ballot is not something people do lightly, or easily. It is not like not turning out to vote at all. On the contrary It shows a desire to vote; but also an inability to go against one's own conscience or interests.

This issue is the single most defining issue for most people here. It is not a side issue, or less unimportant. It is central and absolutely defining.

As for the second sentence, I'm not at all sure what, or who, you are referring to when you say " throwing people under a bus because of their genitals". Women are indeed being thrown under the bus - if that is what you mean. And that is not something any of us here can support - in any form. It is far too important.

Vote against austerity, privatisation of the NHS etc - these issues impact the women you claim to be fighting for much more than the existence of a small group of people who don't conform to sex and gender stereotypes

And I, for one, am not voting for a NHS in which children are routinely given puberty blockers at public expense; nor for one which in the future could be the subject of legal actions taken by young people whose bodies, sexualities and mental health have been damaged by trans-gender ideology - its surgeries and medications.

Lots of people do not conform to gender stereotypes. It is not small group. It describes most of us. I'm sick of this desire among some to be seen as unique or special, or uniquely oppressed. The idea that rejecting gendered norms is somehow new and revolutionary. It isn't!

I am so glad that there's somewhere to discuss this. I would do anything to block Brexit as I believe it could damage our country beyond repair, but at the same time how can I give my vote to any party that despises me for being gender-critical, and makes that blatantly clear? How do I square that circle? I live in a Tory seat which could possibly be taken by the Lib Dems: the proposed Tory candidate is a firm Brexiteer. I should hold my nose and vote LibDem, but I am struggling hugely with this.

It is a struggle and it's taken a long, long time for me to get to this point. Even now, if the Labour Party leadership stood up and said that what happened at Brighton was unacceptable then I would listen. But posters dropping in to patronise and wag their fingers, as if we're doing this on a whim - they are doing more damage than they will ever know.

But posters dropping in to patronise and wag their fingers, as if we're doing this on a whim - they are doing more damage than they will ever know

Precisely; it demonstrates just how profoundly unimportant some people seem to think this issue is. And for those that see themselves as being on the left, how little they really understand what the women's movement has all been about. It is all just lip service.

the same way that many seem to pay lip service to the trans issue - but without ever really having given it serious thought. Makes you realise how 'right-on' and P.C most people really are. It has nothing to do with genuine understanding of the causes of oppression. More to do with being in the 'right' tribe.

Is it really strange or surprising that within feminism, women attach different weight to specific issues; and also to the value of pragmatism?

Or that when there is a thread on an open chat site, it's utterly normal for anyone to contribute?

I am in a constituency where it is between the SNP and Lib Dem. I am tending towards SNP but await the manifestos. There have been some strong voices for women’s rights in the SNP, even though they have gone quite far down the gender identity route - at least there has been some debate.
I am not sure about independence though but I think that is okay, time will tell on that one.

Is it really strange or surprising that within feminism, women attach different weight to specific issues; and also to the value of pragmatism?

Can you expand on what you mean by 'pragmatism', please?

I will happily listen to exhortations to pragmatism from Pota, as an example, because I know she definitely gets why this is a difficult issue. When people pop on to belittle these concerns, however, I am much less inclined to consider the alternative 'pragmatism', and to view it instead as capitulation.

I'm in an extreme marginal - the SNP have just a 27 vote majority over the Tories. So I will be voting Tory to try and prevent yet another damn independence referendum. That idiot Sturgeon has already been bleating about holding one as early as next year, and nothing short of a pasting at the election will deter her. Fortunately, that fits with my gender critical view as well. The SNP, with one or two honourable exceptions, are woke cookie central - mad keen to show how "progressive" they are, by throwing out women's rights in favour of the TRAs.

I am really sorry that you see people as here to belittle.

If you mean me, yes I did see some things as oddly inconsistent, and so posted about them.

And do find the idea that the same general approach to pragmatism is OK from one poster but not another to be another inconsistency.

Moggy, because you characterized the women who consider the single sex provision issue as their top priority as being obsessed with genitals. That's usually a phrase used by someone who is dismissing the need for single sex provision as unimportant. Which gets short shift here, because it's patronizing anti woman bullshit.

Moggy - what BeMoreMagdalen said. Plus you seemed to confuse "spoiling my ballot paper" with "voting UKIP" which seemed both strange, and rather inflammatory.

When I tweeted about being "politically homeless" - a TRA told me to go and vote UKIP - well no - because if I was going to vote UKIP, I would not feel politically homeless, nor would I be thinking of spoiling my ballot, would I?

We are all aware of the stuff thrown at us when we show concerns about women's rights and self ID, and the blatant disregard, and even outright misogyny, shown to us about our concerns by political leaders. You've put two of them on this thread.

And "pragmatism" nearly always seems to involve women putting aside their needs and wishes for the benefit of everyone else.

Moggy - I spent many happy hours arguing with a couple of posters in the run up to the last Election who were mad keen to get me enlisted in the Cult of Corbyn.

Any suggestion that I had serious concerns about the lack of leadership and very present misogyny were presented as oh well, you're just a red tory and you want the NHS to die.

The briefing 'get in there and educate the poor clueless ladies' was tone deaf, obvious and enraging.

That is how you are coming across. If I've put in a lot of time coming to a conclusion that saddens and angers me, drawing a facile conclusion and telling me I'm just obsessed with genitals is counter productive at best.

For a moment Moggy I read your post as an apology and I thought, how decent and refreshing. Then I read it again and realised it was just a passive-aggressive riff on 'none of you understand me'.

What I don't understand is why you have such a low opinion of women that you think we would consider this lightly.

What I don't understand is why you have such a low opinion of women that you think we would consider this lightly

Yes! Total disregard, as well as an absence of sympathy or empathy for women. Normally if someone identifies closely with something or someone - they are extremely attuned and sympathetic.

Before we get all misty-eyed about Labour, even under Corbyn, coming to the rescue of poor, working class women and/or single mothers, let's remember the most recent manifesto for the last election.

4x the money committed to ending tuition fees for middle class university students than to reversing welfare cuts, which mostly affect women. No scrapping of UC, just a tinkering around the edges.

Feeble on housing, when it's probably the biggest obstacle facing single mothers vis a vis unaffordable rents and short term lets meaning kids have to keep moving schools.

I could go on but I'd be here all day - because I actually read manifestos.

Hand waving about austerity without actually looking at the manifesto and calculating who will benefit from it most is not good enough Moggy. Not voting for Labour = supporting UKIP my fat fucking arse.

I want to vote for a party that a) knows what a woman is and b) puts a high priority on the interests of working class women and single mothers. Labour is not that party. If you want me to vote Labour for pragmatic reasons, find me some fucking pragmatism. Labour's manifesto is appalling for working class women. Get them to make it better and I'll reconsider my vote.

Wot Lang said.

I'm sick to farking death of being told 'just vote for us now to end austerity/sort Brexit/whatever and maybe we'll get to women's rights later'.

Dawn Useful Woke Idiot Butler is charging ahead with self-ID so clearly the issue is important; just not women's safety, dignity or privacy.

You do not get my vote unless you can tell me what I am and why that matters.

Well quite - this is not just the casual misogynistic disregard for women of old - this is an active and deliberate act against women - amending an Act that will impact women's rights, women's ability to access safe single sex spaces, and the actual legal definition of woman, forever. I simply cannot cast my vote for ANY party that will do this.

Exactly, Lang and now it's the bloody Tories who've announced a planned end to the benefits freeze, not Labour.