Christmas is just a load of wifework: discuss

[drspouse]

DH and I have a collaborative approach to Christmas though he tends to want to do less than I do in terms of activities, as our DS needs a bit of structure I usually overrule him.
He writes more Christmas cards than I do as we only do them for elderly relatives who don't have email and he has more of them.
However all family just want me to give them suggestions for presents for the DCs.
And could you just send me a link.
And what does DH want.
Oh can't you just buy it and I'll pay you back. Can't you wrap it too?
And the mums on FB... My goodness. And here too. I bet all the dads are not wrapping up the living room door and moving the elf and buying reindeer food. And working out which relative won't eat smoked salmon canapes and when to get their Ocado slot. And if they'll fit into their slinky dress for the work party.
It's just the whole year of sexism multiplied by 65 million isn't it?

I guess some people like tat. I'm not into Christmas tat myself but as I'm an absolute sucker for a good tourist trap I'm probably not in a position to be judgemental.

As for stuff in shops, when the children were small I used to start Christmas shopping in August as soon as they went back to school. We have several November and December birthdays as well as Christmas and didn't have much spare money so wanted to spread the cost. I don't want to see a tree up on November 1st but having the Christmas stuff in the seasonal aisle in October is helpful for a lot of people.

having the Christmas stuff in the seasonal aisle in October is helpful for a lot of people.

Absolutely. It was just the amount of disposable, cheap, unnecessary stuff that I found a bit much today.

I'm sorry, and don't mean to be difficult but this is frustrating me.
Why do women do this stuff they don't want to do instead of forcing the men to step up?
If you are still together they are his kids too?
I don't understand because apart from wanting equality and choice I wouldn't call myself a feminist, yet no way would I let any society dictate how I live my life.
So it's expected, so bloody what? A lot of things are expected but we don't have to do them. How can we move on if we just do it all without challenging it. Surely this has to be done on an individual level and the way we raise the next generation.

@Drabarni I'm not sure you really understand either feminism or the patriarchy. But you also don't call yourself a feminist so I suppose it's to be expected.
If wifework were entirely a free choice nobody would do it.
Some women have been led to believe it is natural and they are better at it.
Some feel that their families will suffer if they don't.
Some fear the fallout from other adults if they don't.
These are all down to pressure on women and female socialisation.
People don't leave abusive relationships because it's hard. It's not their choice to stay.
My point was that people do other, not so painful but still unpleasant things that they could not do but saying "you choose to, your bed, you lie in it" is not helpful.

no way would I let any society dictate how I live my life.
Then you're deluding yourself.

Why do people do things they don't really want to do?

Because we are human animals, who rely on other human animals for survival. So fitting into the pack is hard wired into us. We need to find a role and purpose in society ( and we die younger if we have no place in society )

We are trained from a very early age that the female role is to do all this stuff. We are given strong rewards as children for doing the right thing as defined by those in power around us ( parents, teachers) and great censure if we don't. And on average female and male children are given slightly different messages about what is required from them in order to be accepted.

As we grow up, some of us think about why it's is assumed to be the female role. Then we think, hang on, the reason ( short version) is patriarchy. We don't want that predefined role, we would like another role and we don't see any societal or personal benefit from the predefined roles.

But now we have a split brain. The rational part that says that couples should determine their own way of living that suits them independent from the society norm, and the irrational fast acting part says that we must behave in a different way because that is expected, acceptable and will lead to greatest reward as we have been trained

?

Hmm, I can see how it can be but it isn't here. We go out for Christmas dinner. We bulk buy hampers for family and friends. It's a Christmas tradition that they like.

I do Santa footprints whilst DH wraps the presents. We donate to charity rather than doing cards.

We don't do elf on the shelf. It's nonsense and seems more like a competition about which parent can be more creative.

The entire point of wife work is that society has created an expectation that women will do it but there's no reason why they should.

I don't think it's unsisterly to point out that the 'wifework' around Christmas is optional. Recognising that women in RL doesn't shoulder all these unfeasible expectations is surely the first step in realising you can stop it too.

Great summary @MIdgebabe

I'm sorry not to be helpful, I'm not purposely being difficult.
I guess I'm trying to work out why I don't feel like other women on the thread and have managed not to get involved with conditioning and expectations in this respect.
I do see that society leads us to believe all these things, but surprised that feminists wouldn't just say no, I'm not going to.
I really don't get it, please don't think I'm judging or being difficult for the sake.

I bet you do loads of things because you are conditioned to do them. You just don't know that's why - most people don't.

I think you will feel society pressure less if you have been brought up in a more equal household which enforced less rigid expectations on you

You will also feel it less if the expectations and your character are well matched.

And some people just find it easier to go their own way, which again I suspect has a evolutionary root...you need some independents to help a population handle change

If there is one thing mn has taught me, it's how different people are, just because I feel something there is no guarantee others will

(Aw thanks)

I suppose I do to an extent, but still, if it's something important to me I'll move mountains not to have to do it/ become involved etc.
An example not xmas, but I'll go off grid before I'll have a smart metre, if they try to force me. It's something I feel strongly about.
Perhaps I should start another thread.
Apologies again for not understanding, I am a bit thick at times

Everything and anything that is fun and a celebration requires work invested into it for it to happen. Christmas is no exception.

I dont agree that all of it is considered to be wife work. I see more the wife work is in the tasks divided by gender roles- wife does cooking and cards, husband does outdoor & indoor decorating, both do presents.

I guess I'm trying to work out why I don't feel like other women on the thread and have managed not to get involved with conditioning and expectations in this respect.

I think some people care very much what other people think of them and others much less so. How much of that is nature and how much nurture is debatable as all these things are but it's noticeable in numerous ways. In the way some people feel the need to 'keep up with the Joneses' or feel the need to follow fashions, others not so much for example.

You probably tend more to the 'don't care what others think' end of the spectrum.

I think some people grow up in families that exert more pressure, too, so not going along with pressure is more anxiogenic.

I just looked that up, Yes, I see what you mean. I've never looked at it that way before.
i don't usually post in feminist boards, so it sort of shocked me to hear people say they did all the xmas work for various reasons.
I suppose I expected a solidarity of stop doing it then sister or the fact they had refused from the off.

Finally, going off for a bit now, but sincerest apologies for not being able to get it, I need to read more feminist chat.

@drspouse
I agree on family pressure. My family is very religious. It would cause a rift if I missed some of the church services. Some of them, I really do love such as the midnight mass which is candle light with beautiful carols. But the season of advent with the extra morning prayers plus mass plus the extra readings for the advent candle can be wearying (half my Sunday every week!).

@Drabarni It might be linked to how our mothers and other female relatives dealt with Christmas and the expectations they had both of themselves and felt from others. My own mother is a big people-pleaser and I am less so but I still feel it there, niggling in the background noise that is my brain.

I never had the sense that she was unhappy doing it, but not showing it might have been a part of it too. Just soldier on, etc. She also had a semi-religious upbringing so there's Catholic guilt in the mix too. 😀

I love a bit of Christmas though. We have cut down who we buy for which is easier. I love decorating the place and making it feel less dull and wintery. I do the majority of christmas but MrQuieter does the majority of other stuff so it works out nicely.

I agree but i cracked last year and contacted a lot of family and said 'please don't buy for me and DH, just DC' so i no longer feel the need to reciprocate (only buy DC in return) so it has cut down the work for me. Part of my problem is I have 8 family birthdays between end Nov and Xmas day so find the gift giving burdensome

We are trained from a very early age that the female role is to do all this stuff

Well, no, some of us aren’t. I have never felt the pressures people talk about on here - I don’t give a stuff what people think of me, I enjoy being selfish, and if people think I’m an unfeeling bitch as a result that’s fine with me. I cannot relate to the people-pleasing martyrdom, difficulty saying no, conforming to expectations etc that many posters say is part and parcel of being a woman.

However, I agree that societal pressure certainly does exist. Societal messages need to change radically to actually promote equality in many areas, not just Christmas. I believe individualism plays a big part in things changing - without the people who actually go, ‘fuck it, I’m not doing t this’, how will society be exposed to new ideas? Did the suffragettes sit back and go, ‘oh well, these women who feel like they can’t fight for the vote, let’s just be sisterly and support them and do nothing but pat them on the head and go ‘there there’. No they didn’t.

I don’t believe being sisterly means supporting other women unconditionally. We’re individuals within a collective. I don’t have any sympathy for people who moan about something like Christmas but aren’t willing to actually stop doing all the unnecessary shit. You wanted advice on how to ease the load and you got it - just don’t do it! And it’s not in any way comparable to leaving an abusive relationship ffs. Society’s expectations of Christmas are not abuse.

I guess I'm trying to work out why I don't feel like other women on the thread and have managed not to get involved with conditioning and expectations in this respect
I do see that society leads us to believe all these things, but surprised that feminists wouldn't just say no, I'm not going to

Quite a few posters have said they don't fall for these expectations. I'm not sure what the OP is wanting beyond possibly tea and sympathy.

I don’t believe being sisterly means supporting other women unconditionally. We’re individuals within a collective. I don’t have any sympathy for people who moan about something like Christmas but aren’t willing to actually stop doing all the unnecessary shit

Yes.

I guess I'm trying to work out why I don't feel like other women on the thread and have managed not to get involved with conditioning and expectations in this respect.

@Drabarni do you have children? For me it’s not society’s expectations that lead me to “do” Christmas. It’s my children’s expectations. Sure, I could refuse to do the tree, stockings, presents, meal etc but they would be disappointed. I don’t give a stuff what others think but I do care if they are upset because unlike all their friends they didn’t get any presents or a tree.

I'm not sure what the OP is wanting beyond possibly tea and sympathy.
A feminist analysis and suggestions for how to change society. Not after tea and sympathy nor pep talks.
If I wanted tea and sympathy I'd go to Chat.