Empowered by 'sex work'

[Springfern]

Long time lurked on this board. Thought I'd introduce myself!

Looking for some advice. I'm firmly rad fem when it comes to so called sex work. I used to work as a support worker for prostituted women and it was such a grim and depressing job. I've spent a number of years reading about prostitution and the nordic model. This is something I feel passionately about and it makes a lot of sense to me alongside my other feminist views.

The problem is... I'm hearing more and more women arguing that sex work is 'empowering' these days. Friends, colleagues, people who I other wise respect...and its everywhere in the culture (their must be about 10 netflix shows right now which glamorise prostitution!) I find it hard to argue with or get through to them without it sounding as if I am anti women's choice (ironically). I also get very have andninvested and then am probably written off as a crazy woman! Have any of you had an success in these types of conversations? If so how? What have you said? Have you managed to change anyone's mind?

My best response at the moment is rolling my eyes and saying 'the men who pay for it feel empowered' ...I need something a bit more substantial though!

Her point was I thought an interesting one. When people think that sex is basically a fun leisure activity and anything goes how can they be made to see the significance and harm of prostitution (or porn or or even sex assault)

I'm really struggling to understand how anyone can't see the difference between "a fun leisure activity" and only agreeing to have sex if you are paid. I think the point is spurious.

extreme promiscuity is not a good idea. It seems like we have chucked out all sexual morality as old fashioned religious, women hating rubbish without considering that moderation might be better for us both physically and mentally.

That’s what I think too. That the whole women can do what men do and have lots of sex is damaging and too simplistic. At some point, the feminist movement confused the freedom to do x, means it is also good to do x. No one really sat and thought just because we can, should we? Is it actually a good thing?

Thoughts:

1. Boys are never told prostitution is empowering.
2. If any other job comes with a risk of pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease you’re doing your job wrong,
3. I find pro-prostitution views are mainly touted by self-identified ‘communists’ that are happy to sell women’s bodies from their iPhones.
4. Much like porn women that say prostitution is liberating are saying so because at some point a man has told them that’s ‘the truth’.

1. Having a summer job as a teenager can be beneficial, having your body sold is abuse.

but someone always pulls out the exception to the rule (e.g. the Belle de Jour type wearing agent provocateur in posh hotels and working to fund her PhD) as a counter argument against the lack of choice/disadvantaged women arguement.

And I always say OK, take away poor women, trafficked women, women who started this underage, addicted women, women with abusive partners, women abused in childhood and homeless women... how many women do you think are left? They would be millionaires. Because there wouldn't be 5 quid blows jobs with none of those women available. There wouldn't be ugly, smelly, dirty, violent men getting sex because those women would be able to choose. There wouldn't be mega brothels or red lights districts.

The whole industry runs on abuse, addiction and poverty. Not empowerment.

Everything in the above post. The OP mentions Netflix. If people are getting their ideas of what prostitution is like from Netflix then they really have no right to speak on the subject!

I find the social harm point interesting. I think more people need to see prostitution as a harm, not just against the women in it, but against all women as a class. As long as the institution of prostitution exists and is legally and culturally sanctioned, women will never be equal to men or treated with the same respect. I see a huge cognitive dissonance in women who, for example, support #metoo (and are against widespread sexual harassment) whilst also supporting prostitution and men's right to pay for women's bodies

"That the whole women can do what men do and have lots of sex is damaging and too simplistic."

i think it's a survival strategy. Women submersed in rape culture are pushed to intentionally reduce the significance of sex because if sex isn't important then they can tell themselves the sexual abuse men have inflicted on them isn't important either.

That men have globally established brothels, rape slavery networks politely called trafficking, flourishing pornography industries, and entire countries in SE Asia where the GNP depends on prostitution sure points to sex being incredibly significant to men's sense of self.

Yes, I agree insideandout3 - it's a form of society-wide Stockholm syndrome, where you come to identify with your abuser and their ideology, because the alternative (recognising that they are abusing you, will continue to abuse you and actually like abusing you, and that you are utterly powerless to do anything about this) would cause psychological self-destruction.

It explains women who are pro misogynistic porn, pro prostitution, pro rape fantasies, pro "choking is just sexy BDSM fun times, innit."

I had someone argue that we all sell our bodies if we work, we just sell our muscles to stack beans or dig roads etc, and if I think selling my vagina is different to selling my arm and leg muscles that's just my hang-ups about my genitals. I still haven't worked out the answer to that one.

Ask him how he feels about selling access to his anus and his mouth and, when he says that's different (he will), point out that no, it's not. Don't let him dodge the question.

Ask him how he feels about selling access to his anus and his mouth and, when he says that's different (he will), point out that no, it's not. Don't let him dodge the question.

10 to 1 says he'll say "but I'm straight." That's what the last punter I posed that question to said.

These fuckwits are not only misogynistic, they're steeped in homophobia, so they can't see that an unwanted penis in any orifice, regardless of one's sexuality, is a complete and utter and traumatising violation.

I've known prostitutes who were lesbians. Then again most punters think lesbians are mythical creatures, sort of like an evil man hating version of bigfoot, and can be cured by their penis, so...

I profoundly disagree with that conclusion. In all of the situations you describe the parties involved are seeking a mutual and consensual relationship. It might be brief and lacking in any commitment and you might not approve of it but it is nothing like prostitution.

There's also the fact that some of this stuff doesn't in any way reflect how the majority of people live or experience sex and relationships. How many people are either in the Rolling Stones or having orgies with them, really? The majority sexual behavior for the last few generations seem to be a period of relative promiscuity in youth for some followed by serial monogamy. People may as a result have more sex partners in total than they did prior to the sexual revolution, but most people aren't out there sport fucking on a regular and ongoing basis. And even for those who are that's very different to being in the sex industry.

Also funny how it's only women of child bearing age it supposedly ''empowers''.

I was thinking some more about this.
If all the women who would otherwise be homeless or unable to eat or feed the kids were out on the streets visibly suffering (and I'm not for a second advocating they should be doing this) rather than turning to prostitution in desperation, would people actually care and think differently?
And as for the 'but it keeps rape down' argument - whether this is accurate or not is saying that it is valid to use some women's bodies as cannon-fodder to protect other women.

Saw this article on the BBC and thought I'd link it here. Apologies if it's already been posted.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/VSUj7yai4n/debranding-my-body

Honestly I think you have misinterpreted what @goosefoot has been saying. She is against prostitution.

It's the usual, here. They aren't actually interested in thinking through the logic of a particular position, or how to explain it more effectivly to anyone like the OP wants, or trying to figure out what the difference in POV is that means so many people since the 60s suddenly think sex work is empowering and should be made legal, or in any kind of in depth discussion about what makes consent valid and what the implications of really restricting that might be.

They are just interested in calling other people prostitution apologists, having people completely accepting what they say is correct, and saying anyone who disagrees with them hates women.

And who does that remind you of...

There's also the fact that some of this stuff doesn't in any way reflect how the majority of people live or experience sex and relationships. How many people are either in the Rolling Stones or having orgies with them, really?

I don't really think this matters, at least, not in the way you are suggesting. It may be that the fact that most people don't go on living that way should clue them in that there is a reason for that.

But many many remain attached to the sex positive approach of the sexual revolution. It's the same thinking that makes them think drag story-time is a good idea, or kids with kinky fetishes at Pride, or similar things. They are committed to the idea that people can consent to any sexual activity, even if it is physically damaging or mentally unhealthy for them.

That reflects what they think sex is, what it's for, and a view that give a lot of weight to individual agency. It's pretty logical that if you think that a person can validly choose to have sex that is psychologically self-destructive, or go to a BDSM festival where they have physically damaging sex, you also think they can also validly choose to do it for money. And a question that someone like that is likely to ask is, if we are saying people can't validly make that last choice, can they make the others, and how do we draw a line around individual agency?

I'm finding the conversation on the "Prostitution and rape: how men frame it" thread to be a fantastically in-depth examination of the logic behind consent and how men have defined sexual consent to nullify objections their abuses.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3726374-Prosittution-and-rape-how-men-frame-womens-experiences

If all sex is a fun leisure activity then why would anybody need to do it for money? You don't normally require to be paid to enjoy yourself.

Maybe giving a blowjob to the next guy that comes along whoever he may be is nothing like a fun leisure activity for a woman. It's people's misogyny and lack of empathy for women that makes people believe that prostitution is a fine activity for a woman. Her feelings about the sex she is having and the man who is using her are ignored completely. I don't think it's that much of a mystery as to why people would support it.

The things is that it can be empowering in a very limited set of circumstances but usually is the exact opposite. Perhaps the argument that sex work should only be allowed when it empowers women and not under any other circumstances. The majority of sex work would fall short if that requirement but women who do choose to undertake sex work wouldn’t loose agency.

What kind of power do women achieve through prostitution Velveteen?

I'm gradually beginning to think that all unequal sexual encounters (and especially prostitution) are grooming and rape.

What kind of power do women achieve through prostitution

Yup, funny isn't it? When people talk of power in the context of men, they talk about bankers, politicians, judges, CEOs.

Of course women can do these things too, but somehow "power" for women also encompasses sucking men's dicks for money. Funny, that.

Indeed Barbara. I was just going to ask, can anybody think of any powerful prostituted women. Powerful in the same way men are powerful. The only high profile women in prostitution I can think of off the top of my head are Brooke Magnanti and Cynthia Payne. One was famous for keeping a brothel, and the other was famous for writing about being paid by men for sexual services, including being urinated on. I wouldn't call either of them powerful.

If all sex is a fun leisure activity then why would anybody need to do it for money? You don't normally require to be paid to enjoy yourself

I agree. I found Goosefoot's argument that if one has no moral or ethical objection to concensual casual sex then the next logical step must be that prostitution is acceptable entirely illogical and unconvincing.

An aside - having actually read pieces by ex- groupies I don't think the reasons young women seek out musicians is anything to do with prestige or getting a backstage pass.