Empowered by 'sex work'

[Springfern]

Long time lurked on this board. Thought I'd introduce myself!

Looking for some advice. I'm firmly rad fem when it comes to so called sex work. I used to work as a support worker for prostituted women and it was such a grim and depressing job. I've spent a number of years reading about prostitution and the nordic model. This is something I feel passionately about and it makes a lot of sense to me alongside my other feminist views.

The problem is... I'm hearing more and more women arguing that sex work is 'empowering' these days. Friends, colleagues, people who I other wise respect...and its everywhere in the culture (their must be about 10 netflix shows right now which glamorise prostitution!) I find it hard to argue with or get through to them without it sounding as if I am anti women's choice (ironically). I also get very have andninvested and then am probably written off as a crazy woman! Have any of you had an success in these types of conversations? If so how? What have you said? Have you managed to change anyone's mind?

My best response at the moment is rolling my eyes and saying 'the men who pay for it feel empowered' ...I need something a bit more substantial though!

I would ask them to follow the money. Who benefits when people believe that sex work is all empowering and sexy and fun?

Honestly the marketing of the sex industry in recent years has been exceptional. They should be doing case studies on it in business schools and I'm not surprised people are falling for it.

The reality of course...

DuMondeB thank you for sharing. An incredibly powerful read.

Some great advice on here. Thanks everyone. Particularly this-
Sometimes I think that it can be helpful, instead of trying to think of the best argument for your own POV, is to try and think about the weaknesses, or the ways in which the other POV is most convincing

And this-Ask them if they think it's right for a man to pay for a woman for access to her vagina and mouth
I feel like I waste a lot of time arguing about the woman's varying choice/freedom and not enough discussing male behaviour

And dumonde thank you so much for sharing that. I'm so sorry you had those experiences

This is something I struggle to discuss with those who think it is empowering. Thank you for what you shared dumonde - that is so real.
Every fibre of me feels that sex work, prostitution, pornoraphy, are so hurtful to women and society. Yet I find myself surrounded by men and women who think it is all fun and empowering and I really do feel unable to respond adequately to their arguments.

Any mention of shame or degradation seems to equate to me being a prim old maid who thinks womens bodies are shameful. It's the commodification and degradation by men of womens bodies I find shameful but since it's the woman's choice who am I to judge?
I had someone argue that we all sell our bodies if we work, we just sell our muscles to stack beans or dig roads etc, and if I think selling my vagina is different to selling my arm and leg muscles that's just my hang-ups about my genitals. I still haven't worked out the answer to that one.

Yes I have found most men are pro prostitution.

You then say so you would be happy for your wife, daughter, mother, sister to have as a career option? They then go er um er well no.

What they are saying is they are happy for women who are caught in the poverty cycle to do that job, not their family silly!?

Any mention of shame or degradation seems to equate to me being a prim old maid who thinks womens bodies are shameful.

Don't talk about shame and degradation, which idiots don't care about. I talk about trauma and PTSD, measurable and worse than combat veterans.

Any mention of shame or degradation seems to equate to me being a prim old maid who thinks womens bodies are shameful. It's the commodification and degradation by men of womens bodies I find shameful but since it's the woman's choice who am I to judge?

I think for a lot of people this comes down to basic difference in the way they think about sex, and maybe also how they think about work.

The POV these people are coming from is that sex is no different than any other bodily activity, it isn't special, it's not any more about love or intimacy, or more personal. They tend to think that "bad" prostitution is like working in a sweat shop - it's the conditions and exploitation, not the thing itself. So they also tend to think that the real reason we end up with so many problems with sex work is that we attach too much importance to sex, we still see it as different or special, we have left-over hang-ups from religion etc. If we could get over those, we could create conditions where that wouldn't happen.

A lot of the problem "regular" people have when they think about this is that they basically are happy with the idea that sex, as long as there is consent, is ok and no ones business. Anonymous sex, same sex sex, kinky sex, one night stands, friend's with benefits. And they instinctively feel that if they admit that it's possible that sex isn't quite the same as ditch digging, those things might not seem quite the same either.

I would say that the radical feminist viewpoint is really quite good at pointing out the experienced realities and systemic pressures involved in sex work. But what they often don't offer people is a clear argument or idea or sense of what makes sex different than other things. I've wondered if that's a totally honest omission or not, but in any case I think it tends to leave a gap when trying to convince people.

Gosh, please excuse the incorrect apostrophe in my post above.

It's tricky. My friend works as a web cam and also dominatrix and adores it. We both model lingerie - nude but I don't class that as sex work
However we have both had bad experiences with clients/photographers

Empowerment through sex work is usually the reason given why there shouldn't be regulation. So let's agree with these people and say that the majority of women in sex work are there freely and having the time of their lives and have found their vocation...but what about the others?

We have laws about wearing seatbelts to protect everybody, even though most of us will never crash.

If you enter a building site you need a hard hat, even though most people won't bang their heads or have something land on them.

When you take off on a plane there's always that annoying security announcement, even though most planes will not crash.

We generally base rules and regulations about protecting people on the most vulnerable, or lethal threat to a tiny minority. These rules inconvenience the majority, yet we don't complain about them, they're accepted as normal. So why are the most vulnerable sex workers ignored? Do people who talk about either empowerment of sex work think that only the sex workers who feel empowered count?

And, of course, the majority of sex workers are not empowered through what they have to do.

So I'd ask why these people arguing that the empowerment of some sex workers is more important than the safety of them all, in particular the most vulnerable.

Apologies for random words appearing there!!

Tell them to spend a full afternoon reading reviews on Punternet and then get back to you.

But what they often don't offer people is a clear argument or idea or sense of what makes sex different than other things.

I'm thinking along different lines. The people who take the line that sex work is 'empowering' and therefore a Good Thing are the ones treating sex as something different.

The point being that when it comes to other activities, we can easily see that not everything which someone may find to some degree 'empowering' is good, either for the individual or others. Men may find their physical strength empowering, or carrying a knife, or the 'respect' of gang membership or the money earned through drugs. Just because something is 'empowering' doesn't make it valid.

And of course, for many women sex work isn't truly empowering anyway.
Education is empowering. Equality is empowering. Being respected is empowering. Maybe some women who already have some of those factors (the Belle du Jours) can make choices which work for them. But this doesn't apply to many. Drug addiction is disempowering. Poverty can be disempowering. Not being respected or treated as an equal, disempowering. Start from there... sex work doesn't seem likely to help.

I had someone argue that we all sell our bodies if we work, we just sell our muscles to stack beans or dig roads etc, and if I think selling my vagina is different to selling my arm and leg muscles that's just my hang-ups about my genitals. I still haven't worked out the answer to that one.

He's full of shit, guarantee he'd feel like his penis or anus was a different kind of muscle to his arm or leg if his boss was demanding he use it during work time! That is just a trolling comment, they don't believe it, it's a standard men's rights activist talking point. Liken sex trafficking to conscription - the death rates are probably about the same.

When was the last time they sold access to the inside of their body? Digging roads comes with workplace safety, protective work wear, legal and fair work contracts, unions. Ask them how they can make it safe for a you to be enclosed in a private space with a man who is entitled to access the inside of your body. What would be necessary to pass a health and safety inspection? How much would those necessities cost?

The other thing is, if it’s work, how come men pay more for the young and inexperienced? Because no other workplace I’ve ever known works like that.

The Belle DuJour types will find it a lot harder to leave behind nowadays - 20 years ago phones flipped open and had a pull out aerial. No photos, no screen shots. Fake name. No social media, no reverse image search... much harder to stay anonymous nowadays.

I thought this Morning Star article about the failure to meaningfully unionise the sex ‘industry’ was excellent:

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/sex-work-organising-lot-hot-air

"But what they often don't offer people is a clear argument or idea or sense of what makes sex different than other things."

Sex creates babies. There is no other job where pregnancy by your client could be a side effect of the transaction. Or STDs for that matter. There isn't another job that's going to give you syphillis, HIV or chlamydia.

Is that different enough from everything else?

There also isn't another job where the customer is literally allowed to penetrate your orifices.

If your employer demanded access to your vagina as a requirement of your current job, what you do?

Is that different enough from everything else?

Pregnancy is a good argument I think, though maybe not so much from the POV of the woman if you consider it just normal medical care with no ethical considerations to decide not to continue with one. But I think you could make a pretty strong case from the POV of the potential child to know and be supported by his or her father.

As far as the rest of your list, I don't know that it is necessarily going to convince a lot of people that it's intrinsically different than other kinds of work, because many types of work can have significant physical risks, and disease, and even violence, associated with them.

I also wonder if people who say sex is intrinsically different really believe that mainly because of the possibility of pregnancy? I'm not so sure, I think they would also claim that male homosexual prostitution was the same without any possibility of pregnancy or a child. It's a notable difference from conservative arguments about prostitution that they will tend to talk about this element openly, but you don't tend to see it so much from leftists. Maybe because they don't have a language developed or accepted to talk about those ideas? I'm not sure but I think it's an important omission.

Every other job makes you a lot less likely to be held prisoner in a hotel room too.

My original version of the long post contained some bad experience stories - I cut them out of this version as there is no opportunity for. content warning (or hiding in spoiler tags). the other thread had been hidden by lot of posters (the OP was looking for support as she had recently started in prostitution).

I think it can feel very different in hindsight - I worry that anyone who feels able to sell sexual consent (male or female) has already been damaged in some way. There is a necessary disassociation that is much easier to reach if you have already lost positive feelings about your body.

I worked in a very fancy place at the absolutely beginning of the lap dancing trend - I knew other young women all over London, from well known places like The Windmill (remember ‘Mrs Hendwrson Presents’?) and Stringfellows to Soho Clip joints and east London stripper boozers where a pint pot went round for coins, rather than notes being stuffed in garters.
These women were bright, hardworking, determined and almost universally damaged, often due to childhood sexual abuse. Prostitution was largely a form of the hyper sexual acting out behaviour that is often seen in abuse survivors,
A way of declaring that the abuser has no lasting power because your body, your sexual agency, isn’t precious anyway.

Some of us gained a lot of strength in each other’s company (which is the only part I would describe as empowering) but others got sucked down as if in a riptide.

I don’t really regret it as such, I don’t think it would do me any good to dwell on it. I really do think fondly of some of my female friends at the time (a gang of women fleecing men for cash feels a bit like thwarting the patriarchy - until you grow up enough to realise that the cash in your handbag means that john’s ex girlfriend won’t be getting her child support that month).

I would crawl across hot coals to stop my daughters doing it - if only I had as much love and respect for little me as I have for my children.

Who is considering abortion ‘normal’ medical care with no ethical considerations?

What is your position on prostitution Goosefoot? If you think radical feminist arguments against it are inadequate you could always make some of your own.

Opening up your body’s orifices to strangers with the added risk of pregnancy seems pretty unique in the world of work to me. It’s because people don’t regard women as fully human that they can contemplate that situation with equanimity. Similarly regarding abortion of an unwanted pregnancy as merely a ‘normal’ medical procedure. Women are flesh and blood, not robots.

How distressing to become pregnant with a stranger’s child and to have to make the decision about what to do about it.

women fleecing men for cash

That's what the "empowerment" narrative really means isn't it?

Both sides basically hold contempt for the other. One side is "empowered" by fleecing pricks who have to pay for it and the other side thinks I know full well you would not do this unless I pay you- but I am paying you and the last laugh's on me

It's not empowering or conducive to good, whether on an individual or societal level.

Maybe some women who already have some of those factors (the Belle du Jours) can make choices which work for them. I'm not convinced there isn't a lot of mythology surrounding even the high end of prostitution. When Brooke Magnanti was outed she did an interview with Billie Piper where Billie asked about the weirdest thing she'd ever done. She (Brooke) described a man who had her put on a pair of glasses, then ejaculated on them, then had her wipe them on the carpet and finally lick his semen off the carpet. Strangely that encounter didn't make it into the series, probably because rather than being a jolly soft-focus romp it's a bit creepy and sad.

I don't know that it is necessarily going to convince a lot of people that it's intrinsically different than other kinds of work, because many types of work can have significant physical risks, and disease, and even violence, associated with them

Um yes that's true. Let's think of them.
Police, fire service, ambulance service, frontline social workers, frontline animal welfare workers, oil rig deep sea divers, construction workers, miners , hospital ER workers, prison officers, the armed services, mountain rescue, lifeboat and coastguard patrol.

Can you see a picture emerging? Every single one of those people is doing a job which has the intention of making other people's lives safer and better. We'd all be worse off they stopped doing their jobs.

Prostitution has no benefits for anyone other than the literal and metaphorical wanker but does considerable harm to the women involved and to society as a whole.