Calling out male creepiness

[Gingerkittykat]

Last night I went to a different supermarket on my way home. The checkout guy was being supervised, he announced it was his first time so we (me and DD) should be gentle with him. At the end he asked how he had done and when we said he had done well he said we should pass on our compliments to his wife.

This man was in his 50s, the person supervising was a guy in his early 20s who seemed pretty shy and a bit awkward.

Obviously he gave me the creeps and both me and DD commented he was a perv to each other after we had left the till.

I wish I had done or said something now, how would people here have handled it?

The acid test for me is - would he have said it to a man?
Sexual innuendo is yet another male dominance display men subject women to on a daily basis.

Sexual innuendo is yet another male dominance display men subject women to on a daily basis

But not all posters are taking it as sexual innuendo. The phrase "first time poster, be gentle with me" or similar is used regularly on AIBU and FWR. I've even seen it in The Archers threads. Are they all making sexual innuendos?

Posters use it on AIBU and FWR - are they all creepy perverts?

Yeah, exactly, and I've seen it on other forums which were just women talking to each other and they'd have been horrified for people to think they were making some sort of sexual reference.

For a lot of people it seems to just mean, please be nice, I'm feeling a bit delicate about this.

This is the issue.

Many things, individually, are innocuous.

When put together they show an intent - the creepiness is greater than the sum of its parts.

I've definitely experienced it - a man does something, seems like an accident (brushes my body as he goes past or something). By the third time it happens, it's not an accident, it's being creepy.

Following your kid's trainer on instagram - not that creepy. Following your kids trainer, and a load of other, solely female insta models, 20 years younger than you - creepy.

But not all posters are taking it as sexual innuendo. The phrase "first time poster, be gentle with me" or similar is used regularly on AIBU and FWR.

I was thinking about this, and the difference is the absence of saying what the 'first time' is.
When someone says 'first time poster' there's no ambiguity, that's what the first time is referring to.
Left open - 'it's my first time' is innuendo. Had he said 'it's my first time on the registers' it would have been completely normal. But the kind of nudge-nudge, wink-wink innuendo is endemic to a certain sector of (especially) men in that age bracket. The seventies have a lot to answer for.

I think people making the argument that this could be innocuous should be aware that by doing so they're strongly suggesting that the OP isn't capable of judging whether or not the man she met meant it in a creepy way, which is rather underminey and not very helpful as a thing to suggest on a threat like this where she's clearly looking for support. She was there, you weren't, why do you believe your interpretation more likely to be correct than hers?

But not all posters are taking it as sexual innuendo..

None of the posters on this thread were with OP and her daughter that day in front of that man. OP said that the man gave her the creeps. People on this board, however, did not hear the way the man said it, see his body language, the way he looked at her etc. Why can't people here accept what OP is saying - that this man made her and her daughter feel uncomfortable?

I think that trying to minimise her experience and that of her daughter in this way on a feminist forum is a bit shit, frankly.

prodigal beat me to it!

I believe the OP thinks he was creepy. I don't agree with her interpretation of what was said.

I am not prepared to give unquestioning support to any women just because she is a woman and she said so. The expression used is a common one used in all sorts of situations.

I believe the OP thinks he was creepy. I don't agree with her interpretation of what was said.

He could've said anything in a creepy way..

Why can't you understand that?

Lots of posters have had the experience however of being in a situation where some people felt one thing was meant, and others really disagreed, or where creepy feeling people really had something else going on, or where their own comments were completely misinterpreted by others.

Being a feminist doesn't mean we accept the idea that any one of us is infallible about our feelings about others, or even our feelings about ourselves, or our perception of situations, or that everyone uses language in the same way or is equally perceptive about it. We all know that people can say things in really weird ways without intending it and sometimes people really get the wrong end of the stick. In both cases they are usually quite unaware of it. People can be like this and also, separately, have a creepy vibe.

The fact is that you cannot get a person in trouble at work just because they have a creepy vibe. As far as what he actually said, about half of the people here seem to say they wouldn't have interpreted it as creepy at all. I wouldn't be confident enough about that to get a person in trouble in their job.

That's unfortunate for you, but does not mean that other women shouldn't trust their own perceptions or talk themselves out of their awareness that a man was behaving inappropriately.

Whether or not she wants to follow up with the shop is up to her, but if people could stop gaslighting her that would be lovely.

None of the posters on this thread were with OP and her daughter that day in front of that man.

No, but lots of us have had people say "it's my first time, be gentle" in non-sexual ways.
OP should have just said "a checkout cashier man was creepy, how would you have handled it?".

If someone asks what you'd do in a situation where a man was creepy then I'd assume they're looking for responses along the lines of to report or not to report, I reported and this is what happened, if you don't report then this is what might happen, rather than "but have you considered that your perceptions may be wrong?"

If you go onto AIBU and someone posts "today someone was really rude to me, they said "xxxx"" you often get a proportion of people telling them it wasn't rude. (In fact you'll get a good number telling them they are BU and sometime ridiculous).
shrug
If you throw something out there onto the open internet, people will consider it from different viewpoints.

* ..but if people could stop gaslighting her that would be lovely.*

Hear, fucking hear.

Can anyone explain why he mentioned his wife, if he didn't mean his comment as a double entendre.

Since when? I totally would have taken this to mean it's his first time on the checkout, and "don't be too harsh on me if I cock it up". I would've taken the comment about his wife to mean she has been supportive of his new job and will be happy to know he's doing well!

I genuinely wish I had no had the experiences I have had to basically..read the above as quite unbelievable! I wish I could be as 'innocent' in my thinking. But creepy men have been creepy men for way too long to me now that this reads as..really naive. I am not meaning to insult you there, I really honestly do wish I could think that way, but I haven't in many years now due to..well many many men and their 'innocent' comments to me/to others. Oh for the days when..I was unaware that so many fucking pervs existed

Also its often not what was said as such, but the way it is said. And tbh, women tend to know when guys are being creeps. Even if he said something most thought was actually 'innocent'..but it read as a creep, he was probably trying to be a creep.

Can anyone explain why he mentioned his wife, if he didn't mean his comment as a double entendre

It already has been explained earlier on the thread and just again now. It could mean something like she's the boss/ she thinks I'll be hopeless- both of which to my mind are a more credible explanation than sexual innuendo.

The OP is not being "gaslighted" unless you think unquestioning acceptance of everything a woman ever says or does is gas lighting.

The OP is not being "gaslighted" unless you think nothing short of unquestioning acceptance of everything a woman ever says or does is gaslighting.

Since when? I totally would have taken this to mean it's his first time on the checkout, and "don't be too harsh on me if I cock it up". I would've taken the comment about his wife to mean she has been supportive of his new job and will be happy to know he's doing well!

That's exactly how I would have interpreted it- other than perhaps my wife will be surprised to hear I'm doing well.

I genuinely wish I had no had the experiences I have had to basically read the above as quite unbelievable!

I find the idea that a person new to a public facing job in front of his superior would choose deliberately to be pervy and creepy pretty unbelievable.

Please email and complain OP

He was definitely trying to make you and your dd uncomfortable and shouldn't have said the first bit, the second bit was his follow up. Revolting. Don't forget he will upset colleagues as well as customers.

But not all posters are taking it as sexual innuendo
The persons it was directed to did.
What difference does it make if "all posters" agree?

That's unfortunate for you, but does not mean that other women shouldn't trust their own perceptions or talk themselves out of their awareness that a man was behaving inappropriately. Whether or not she wants to follow up with the shop is up to her, but if people could stop gaslighting her that would be lovely.

That isn't what gaslighting means. No one has told her she didn't find him creepy. No one has even said that he wasn't creepy. They've said that they would not have understood his comment in the same way.

I don't think people should ignore their perceptions either, but I do think it's a good idea to have some sense that they are not infallible, and that maybe if a lot of people see something differently, maybe it's not as obvious as you thought. We often need to try and put our subjective feelings and impressions into some larger perspective. Some people here think the comment - totally apart from his creep factor - was sexual. Some people don't. It's a pretty even split which suggests it's not all that clear in terms of the comment itself.

Even as far as trusting your instinct, what does that mean here? She's not deciding to get a lift with him, if that was the question I'd say no. It's a matter of going to the manager, who probably can't think in terms of "feels creepy" and has to go on what the comments said. Best case, the guy is a creep and the manager tells him to keep quiet which makes
little difference as he is a creep. Worst case, he's just an awkward man and he now doesn't get to chat with people in his crappy job.