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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian Article on the Joys of Being a Single Woman

147 replies

IcedPurple · 13/10/2019 10:23

Had a quick check to see if this article had already been posted but seems not. I guess you could file this under 'tell us something we don't already know' - it's long been known that well-being stagnates or declines for women on marriage, while the opposite is true for men - but still good to see it being talked about. And in The Guardian, of all places!

*For years, the feminist writer Linda Hirshman courted controversy by advising that marriage, unless to an exceptional man, is often a “bad bargain” for women. With every child a woman has, she sees her pay and long-term professional opportunities decline, particularly if she leaves the workforce for a significant period of time.

Furthermore, marriage has historically presented women with two options, neither good: marry a man and sacrifice your autonomy and career goals to become financially dependent on him. Or marry a man and maintain your own career but be prepared to have a “second shift” career taking care of him and the home. Even among more open-minded millennial men, the female spouse still ends up doing the majority of caregiving and housekeeping.

More women, however, are foregoing marriage and motherhood. In doing so, they trade in their “second shift” and instead begin taking care of themselves. To use Hirshman’s language, they are rejecting a “bad bargain”. This new status quo frustrates men who feel entitled to female companionship, such as angry male “incels".*

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/13/you-dont-have-to-settle-the-joy-of-living-and-dying-alone

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IcedPurple · 16/10/2019 08:39

You've never met anyone who ended up the guardian of children because there wasn't really anyone else to do it?

I could count the number of people I know to whom that has happened on the fingers of one hand. The vast majority of people who have children in contemporary Britain or other Western countries made an active choice to have them.

But I'll think "childfree" is ok the same time I think "elderfree" "womanfree" and "Mexicanfree" are ok.

And that's absolutely fine, since nobody needs or asked for your approval.

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bd67th · 16/10/2019 09:37

If you'd had a child who'd died, hearing the term childfree would be so painful. I imagine. It sounds so mean.

Having someone who had never had kids and doesn't want them self-describe as "childless" would arguably hurt more, when the bereaved parent tries to bond with the "childless" person over their shared sense of loss only to find that the "childless" person actively does not want kids.

But I'll think "childfree" is ok the same time I think "elderfree" "womanfree" and "Mexicanfree" are ok.

That's three false equivalences in one sentence. Impressive.

"elderfree": Having dependent elders is not a choice and so this term is not applicable for that reason.

"womanfree": If intentionally-single people want to adopt a similar unsexed term like "partnerfree" to describe their relationship decisions then they should do that. Under other circumstances (e.g. gay saunas, swimming sessions), "male-only" or "men-only" would be appropriate. A term like "womanfree" is sexist, but the comparable sexed term to refer to children wouldn't be "childfree" but "girlfree" and we know how badly "girlfreedom" is working out for parts of India and China. And no, "manfree" and "boyfree" aren't ok either.

"Mexicanfree": are you seriously conflating Trump's border policies with a person's choices about their private and family life, which are protected by the Human Rights Act?

Jennifer2r · 16/10/2019 10:46

I totally get why you would want to celebrate being childfree with the term childfree. It's just that I don't. Not choosing to have children isn't a celebratory thing for me it's just a matter of fact. Like choosing notto live in Glasgow or choosing not to have an afro.

IcedPurple · 16/10/2019 11:13

I totally get why you would want to celebrate being childfree with the term childfree. It's just that I don't.

That's fine. I don't think anyone has said you must refer to yourself as 'childfree' have they? Just that that is how some of us prefer to refer to ourselves, despite some pearl clutching in certain quarters.

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RhinoskinhaveI · 16/10/2019 11:33

I think I prefer childless to childfree.
Those who choose not to have children must surely acknowledge that children are vitally important for human society, being a parent is is a very important job and those who undertake it should be valued for the work that they do do.

lazylinguist · 16/10/2019 11:39

I find it very hard to untangle exactly what I have lost and gained by marrying and having children, particularly in terms of my career.

I'm beginning to think that my narrative that I have the easier life (working part time in a low-paid, relatively low-stress job for which I am very over-qualified, and doing almost all of the housework and school-age children stuff), while dh works pretty long hours in a highly stressful and well-paid job, is actually not the whole truth.

I was senior to him (same sector) job-wise when we met. I say I'm not ambitious, but it would be truer to say I'm not ambitious any more. But if I went back to work full time, I'd still end up doing most of the home stuff. Not because he's lazy or useless in any way, but because he'd still be working longer hours than me as he's so senior.

IcedPurple · 16/10/2019 11:42

I think I prefer childless to childfree.

Your preferences are fine for you, but totally irrelevant to anyone else.

Those who choose not to have children must surely acknowledge that children are vitally important for human society, being a parent is is a very important job and those who undertake it should be valued for the work that they do do.

This is precisely the sort of smugness which makes me use the term 'childfree' with pride!

Putting aside the question of whether or not we actually need more children in a world with 7 billion people, those who chose to reproduce do so for entirely selfish reasons, just as those of us who choose to remain childfree do too.

Plus, what does a childfree person using the term 'childless' have to do with 'valuing' those who made the selfish choice of reproducing their genes?

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sunshinesupermum · 16/10/2019 12:30

cocklodge great description!

dodgeballchamp · 16/10/2019 12:59

Ive always lived with the assumption that I only have myself to rely on, financially and otherwise. Relationships shouldn’t be presented as a means to plug a monetary or emotional hole - they should be an added (but in practical terms, unnecessary) bonus to a life that’s already full without one.

Self-sufficiency should be presented as a priority. And I’d like to see society change radically to encourage equal parenting rather than women having to make all the sacrifices. But it should absolutely be made clear that marriage and children are not a necessity or an achievement. They are one path of many. Being self sufficient gives me more pleasure, satisfaction and freedom than any relationship ever has. I do date, but I keep it casual, and I’m not sure I could ever live with anyone - living alone made me the happiest I’ve literally ever been in my life

IcedPurple · 16/10/2019 13:44

I absolutely agree with everything you've said. For me too, living alone and being self-sufficent aren't a 'lack' of something. Quite the opposite, they are a part of who I am. I think I've known since childhood that I would never marry. I just didn't see what would be in it for me. I still don't.

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dodgeballchamp · 16/10/2019 13:45

Yep, same here! Never seen marriage or kids in my future even when I was a very young kid myself.

Jennifer2r · 16/10/2019 13:55

@IcedPurple you seem quite defensive. I thought we were just discussing what terms we use. No, no ones ever told me I need to use childfree and I already said I'm happy for others to use other terms. Confused

SpamChaudFroid · 16/10/2019 14:46

I spent my entire life in and out of relationships and one marriage and realise now I was completely subservient to nearly all of those men under the guise of stepford wife "cool girl".

I've only begun thinking and discovering what I liked and what was important to me in the last few years that I've been widowed. I won't be having another deep relationship (romantic or platonic) with another man. I like knowing who I am.

AutumnRose1 · 16/10/2019 14:58

I've known since I was a child as well.

It's amazing how much you get told "you'll change your mind" as an adult though.

Also, a lot of people seem to find it distasteful to see marriage as a legal agreement. Not now maybe, but in my 20s...

dodgeballchamp · 16/10/2019 15:07

Autumn I find it baffling when people say they have never thought of, or worse, didn’t know, marriage is a legal agreement. What else did you think it was?! It makes me facepalm so hard that people think of marriage as synonymous with a wedding and don’t realise it’s financial implications

SapphireSeptember · 16/10/2019 15:12

Can confirm. I've been single for over a year after being with my ex for 12 years (since I was 18.) I don't want another long term relationship, although I think being with my ex put me off the idea for life. He's the biggest man child I've ever known, and he's back to living with him mum (she can deal with his drama.) I never feel lonely, I spend hours by myself and I'm quite happy with that. I have two distinct communities I'm part of and that fills my human contact quota.

AutumnRose1 · 16/10/2019 15:14

dodge not saying they don't know, but it's like they see it as unpleasant to view the practicality and you must be a bad person if you don't just see romance.

SapphireSeptember · 16/10/2019 15:15

I suppose I should also add that I'm child-free too. I wanted kids once but the older I've got the less I've wanted it until I gave up on the idea all together. I like my free time and being able to decide to do things on a whim. Organising myself and keeping myself alive is hard enough (sometimes I forget food is a thing.)

BeyondAvoidant · 16/10/2019 15:34

I "unintentionally ended up" with children - my own, biological ones, not adopted or step. Found out nice and early, so no case of too late for abortion or anything.

I also "unintentionally" ended up married to a man.

I was undiagnosed autistic and blithely sailing along with everything that was expected of me, in the hope that I would find the "fit" that had thus eluded me. I didn't.

I now live very happily with a woman, living my authentic life. I love my children, but I do regret having them, I don't think it was right for me. I'm not a maternal person at all.

While l would not wish them away, I wish I had been confident enough in myself to voice that I had never wanted to have children.

And that's all the stark honesty you'll get from me today!!

deydododatdodontdeydo · 16/10/2019 15:43

It's amazing how much you get told "you'll change your mind" as an adult though.

I suppose it's because many people do change their mind.
I had no intention of having children until around age 29, then I suddenly did.
For some people it never changes, but plenty of people do change.

IcedPurple · 16/10/2019 15:51

For some people it never changes, but plenty of people do change.

Hopefully, if more girls and women are given the facts - statistically, marriage leads to reduced well-being for women - they too will change their minds and realise that the whole 'marriage and children' thing is overrated.

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AutumnRose1 · 16/10/2019 16:07

"For some people it never changes, but plenty of people do change"

Plenty of people regret marrying nd having children but I think when they announce either of those plans, they don't get "are you sure, you'll change your mind".

deydododatdodontdeydo · 16/10/2019 16:09

Plenty of people regret marrying nd having children but I think when they announce either of those plans, they don't get "are you sure, you'll change your mind".

Of course they do!
Have you never heard, when people announce they are getting married, people say "don't rush into it"?
People are full of advice - don't have kids until you are sure, don't get married too soon, etc.

IcedPurple · 16/10/2019 16:16

People are full of advice - don't have kids until you are sure, don't get married too soon, etc.

But they rarely say: don't get married or have kids, ever. Given the statistics, it might be good advice.

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AutumnRose1 · 16/10/2019 17:07

"Have you never heard, when people announce they are getting married, people say "don't rush into it"?

Not heard of anyone saying that to the couple, no, absolutely not. I don't know anyone who got married really young though.

Certainly not heard of anyone say to anyone trying for a baby "oh don't do that, you'll regret it" which is all I ever heard about being childfree.