How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

Males who insist they are no different to females are denying the existence of women.

Stop denying our existence!

That kind of gynophobia that has led to the actual, literal deaths of 70,000,000 girls and women — a significant global population shift that has taken place, thanks to femicide and sex-selective abortion, wherein males now outnumber women.

So by denying our existence, transactivists are contributing to the global genocide of women.

There: we can play the hyperbole game too.

I think trans men should qualify for shortlists - they are under represented in politics.

FWR’s post was perfectly civil, and her question is a good one. I can use the pronouns and say “Ms”, no problem. Doesn’t mean that person should be in a female shelter.

No one is required to validate another person’s self perception. Forcing a woman to treat an adult male “like a woman” (eg by sharing a room in a hostel) is creepy and weird.

I'm not sure how people debating the meaning of a word is denying the existence of anything - could you talk me through the logic please? I'm clearly not clever enough to get it.

How self deprecating. Somehow I don’t believe you think you are not clever enough.
By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women. It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist.

Males who insist they are no different to females are denying the existence of women.

Stop denying our existence!

Yes I totally get that, and logically it makes sense.
We’ve got two sets of competing rights here, always a tricky situation and not easy to resolve.

if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist.

No, we're saying that what they say they are isn't what they actually are. Transwomen are not women. Only men can be transwomen. Men are not women.

What they say they are exists, but doesn't include them. Saying transwomen are men doesn't stop them from existing.

We’ve got two sets of competing rights here, always a tricky situation and not easy to resolve.

It's not really that tricky. Men are men and women are women. Men can't be women and women can't be men. We all have the same human rights.

We’ve got two sets of competing rights here, always a tricky situation and not easy to resolve.

Tell me why it is women who need to do the accommodating and make changes to the definition of who we are as a group and sex class.

What compromises are trans people wanting to make to help us feel safe and respected?

How was I patronizing? I honestly have no clue what I am supposed to be doing in order to be “respectful” to trans women and women both.

If it’s about sex stereotypes, upholding these is misogynistic.

If it is about pronouns, I will say “you” and use their name when talking to them. Using 3rd person pronouns and salutations when speaking to someone doesn’t make grammatical sense anyway.

So it’s about spaces? But Why should spaces and woman’s awards be segregated by gender identity rather than sex? I am being “disrespectful” to women or trans women no matter what I do. Female women are losing out on those awards to male women, who experienced the privileges of growing up male in patriarchy.

Women have a right to privacy from males. Trans woman have a right... for everyone to pretend they are female? But Why? How is this respectful to either women or transwomen?

I know from experience with my partner who was once trans identified that living this lie is psychologically damaging. You know everyone is lying to you when they pretend you are the sex you are not. Lying to trans identified people does no one any good.

Fieldofgreycorn

Normally, when competing rights are at issue, there is debate, negotiation, a weighing up of history, risk, damage, etc. along with fundamental values.

I refer you to this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3697155-Nuanced-debate-RE-changes-to-the-GRA?pg=1

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women. It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist.

What they are is adult human males, of or denoting the sex that produces sperm, saying they are adult human females, of or denoting the sex that produces eggs.

These people exist. They are valid.

As do adult human females. They also exist.

They are not the same people. No one, including themselves, thinks it.

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women

Well yeah. Men aren’t women. Just because someone claims something daft, doesn’t mean I have to go along with it, even if that really, really upsets them

It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist

No

Saying someone is not what they claim to be (e.g. ‘you’re not a qualified doctor’) isn’t questioning their existence

if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist

Histrionic hyperbole and misdirection.

Okay. Let's say anyone who says they are is a woman and anyone who says they are is a man. The class of people formerly known as women are now bobbles and the people formerly known as men are unbobbles.

Nothing has changed. Bobbles are still different to unbobbles. Bobbles are still vulnerable to rape by unbobbles. Unbobbles are still over-represented in powerful positions. Unbobbles still display entitlement. Bobbles still needs safe spaces that only bobbles can go into. Bobbles still need affirmative action to address inequities. Unbobbles can still beat bobbles at sport.

Both bobbles and unbobbles continue to exist and continue to be entirely different from one another.

Tell me why it is women who need to do the accommodating and make changes to the definition of who we are as a group and sex class.

It’s not just the definition of women, it’s the definition of men as well. You don’t have to have a penis or a Y chromosome to be a man nowadays you know!

What compromises are trans people wanting to make to help us feel safe and respected?

Some not much. There does seem to be general agreement amongst trans people that people like KW shouldn’t be in women’s prisons and Yaniv is not entitled to have their nether region waxed in a woman only salon etc.

We’ve got two sets of competing rights here, always a tricky situation and not easy to resolve

But as far as the TRAs/MRAs are concerned, that’s not actually true, is it! As far as they are concerned there are no ‘competing rights’. There is simply the ‘fact’, as far as they’re concerned, that they are demanding special rights and women who say that they need protection are simply ‘terfs/transphobes’. They won’t even acknowledge that women are trying to protect the rights of females. The TRAs/MRAs won’t acknowledge that there is no *competing rights’ or that it’s a ‘tricky situation’. They want our spaces and we’re expected to hand them over. Not happening, without a fight. Though, unlike male bodied people, the feminists will not be physically violent.

They are not the same people. No one, including themselves, thinks it.

They’re not the same, I agree. But these days there is more than one way to be a woman. It just makes them a different type of woman. With some issues that are the same as us and some that are different.

It’s not just the definition of women, it’s the definition of men as well. You don’t have to have a penis or a Y chromosome to be a man nowadays you know

Unfortunately for you nearly all the population disagree with your appropriation of the word women. The fact that TRAs have persuaded some weak minded people otherwise does not mean everyone else is not quite clear on the definition. As is the Equality Act.

Can anyone explain how my rights as a woman conflict with the rights of any other women?

Transwomen are men, EVERYBODY knows this and recognises this. That is why they are getting listened too, why they are getting favourable treatment, why they feel free to issue violent threats to women, why people are scared to disagree with them.

It just makes them a different type of woman.

Yes. I did say. They're the newfangled type of women who have unbobble risk factors and privileges and none of the bobble vulnerabilities or needs.

Changing the words doesn't change the underlying material reality.

We are not avatars.

Try again.

But these days there is more than one way to be a woman

Perhaps in your opinion there is, but not in my opinion. My definition of woman is the age old one that has worked perfectly well for millennia.

Field you can have a TW / “c*s” woman combined homeless shelter over there.

While will have a female-only homeless shelter over here.

You organise by “gender” (something both TW and CW identify as having).

We (the general we) will organise by sex.

I’ve yet to hear any reasonable objection to this proposal.

The fact that you know transwomen are men field is the only reason why your are favouring them.

The bobbles/ unbobbles scenario doesn’t take into account the (supposed) difference between sex and gender. I feel like saying trans bobbles are bobbles, but I’m not trying to make light of it.

If someone is chromosomally male then they will stay chromosomally male whatever society does to them. I’m not disagreeing with that.

No Birds I’m not favouring them. I would extend the same courtesy to trans men.

If someone is chromosomally male then they will stay chromosomally male whatever society does to them. I’m not disagreeing with that.

It just makes them a different type of woman.

🤣 there really is nothing like the utter incoherence and universal contradiction of this ideology.