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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Parents objecting to male nursery staff changing nappies

273 replies

popehilarious · 18/09/2019 16:38

www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1168681/parents-uncomfortable-with-male-practitioners-changing-their-childs-nappy

Hope the clicky link works.
The male staff are usually the key workers who would normally change nappies but some parents object.

I'm not a safeguarding expert but presumably the same rules and policies apply to both sexes of staff? How can a nursery as an employer discriminate duties on the basis of sex, or would this fall under the exemptions (ie asking for same-sex person to do intimate care) where the child is female? I'm a bit muddled about this.

My son had male nursery key workers who were great role models.

OP posts:
winterwardrobe · 24/09/2019 08:31

"If it was the other way round & women were being discriminated against there would be uproar!"

Really? Male prisoners are not allowed to be strip searched by female prison officers. They aren't in "uproar" about it.

And for everyone mentioning the notorious female paedophile, you all know her, you know her name, she's notorious. Because she is unusual, she's in a huge minority. Most paedophiles are men. Protecting babies who couldn't tell us anything if they wanted to takes priority over ensuring nursery workers do the exact same tasks as each other.

winterwardrobe · 24/09/2019 08:34

"If I refused to get on a bus with a female driver because I felt unsafe would my feelings be wrong? Or should I just wait for a male driver? Or ask the bus company to employ a man for that route?"

How is this relevant to this thread? If you don't want to get on any bus then don't. You're an adult, you have a voice. Babies don't and so it is up to their parents to do this for them.

I'm assuming the bus driver won't be removing your underwear? Hmm

Lweji · 24/09/2019 09:07

We check the safeguarding policies and make sure they are as tight as possible so it doesn’t matter about sex, race, clothing, or anything else, no one gets the opportunity to hurt anyone.

This 1000x.
All the other stuff about men having higher risk, so avoid only men regardless of safeguarding is bollocks.

Lumene · 24/09/2019 09:19

The difference with nurseries and places of work we don’t need to judge on appearances or chance of something bad happening. We check the safeguarding policies and make sure they are as tight as possible so it doesn’t matter about sex, race, clothing, or anything else, no one gets the opportunity to hurt anyone. We have access to police records and checks, references to make doubly sure.

Anyone who believes safeguarding policies and DBS checks ensure no one ever gets hurt is kidding themselves.

Arm yourself with information about the reality of abusers before you make decisions about your children’s care - and certainly before you dismiss others’ comments.

No one is suggesting judging the risk of CSA against race, clothing etc there’s no suggestion or evidence this has anything to do with it.

Lumene · 24/09/2019 09:27

I strongly recommend parents interested in protecting their children arm themselves with a dose of reality and read this book. Anna Salter has spent a lot of time with perpetrators of abuse. These people rely on others trusting, feeling they can’t ask difficult questions, believing safeguarding checks will ensure all is ok and ignoring instincts.

www.amazon.co.uk/Predators-Pedophiles-Rapists-Other-Offenders/dp/0465071732?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Does she say all men are paedophiles? No. Does she say you should judge the safety of your children based on race or clothes or whatever else? Of course not.

What she does do is lay out the profile of and tactics of successful abusers who got away with it often for years before anything happened that would have shown up on a DBS check.

There are some key red flags and only a small part of that is checking safeguarding policies.

DBS checks only make sure children will not be with an abuser who has been caught and can easily lead to complacency as per posters comments above.

Organisations fail to do checks or follow safeguarding procedures all the time. Sometimes they wilfully set them aside because they don’t wish to offend people.

Childcare should be at heart about the child’s needs and safety not centred around adult Male ‘rights’.

Lweji · 24/09/2019 09:38

Anyone who believes safeguarding policies and DBS checks ensure no one ever gets hurt is kidding themselves.

Of course they are not 100% foolproof, but then neither is excluding males, as mentioned many times on this thread.

Lweji · 24/09/2019 09:40

Those sound like reasonable procedures, but applied to both men and women and individually.

rebecca102 · 24/09/2019 09:44

Hmm. Would I like a male I don't know well to change my daughters nappy. Nup.

rebecca102 · 24/09/2019 09:45

@angell84 Exactly!!!

winterwardrobe · 24/09/2019 09:56

@rebecca102 I wouldn't be overly keen on it either.

And if I get sent to prison for any reason then I'll be glad it's a female prison officer strip searching me. Because the world hasn't gone completely bonkers yet

Lumene · 24/09/2019 10:06

@lweji previous posts were suggesting these checks ensure nobody gets hurt, I was responding to them.

Sadly yes nothing will 100% exclude risks it is about choosing things that will reduce that risk as much as possible.

Lumene · 24/09/2019 10:08

then I'll be glad it's a female prison officer strip searching me.

A man identifying as a woman can strip search female prisoners according to current MoJ policy. This means he says he feels like a woman doesn’t need any surgery/medical intervention.

winterwardrobe · 24/09/2019 10:17

And that is ridiculous but gladly it hasn't happened yet. This article isn't talking about men identifying as women though is it?

Aaarrgghhh · 24/09/2019 12:42

This is quite sad actually. Slightly different but my daughter was in hospital for quite a long time when she was born, she had male nurses looking after her and they all changed the nappies of whoever they were caring for, it’s part of the job and I imagine daycare settings are the same and then men are fine to change nappies and to be thought of as a pedophile is awful for them. What about special needs schools where many children may still be in nappies, I don’t expect them to only hire women so that men don’t change nappies. I can’t even get my head around finding something wrong like this. My daughter has also had healthcare workers that were men and they all changed her nappies and we had no problem with that.

Goosefoot · 24/09/2019 13:49

DBS checks do very little to prevent abuse, mostly they are about liability. They are about the least important part of safeguarding.

Things like having changing areas in visible places, workers not alone with kids, etc, are more important.

Sitting next to one person on a bus rather than another may or may not reflect a bad sort of racism or sexism. Often, it has no real effect on the other passenger, so it's irrelevant. Though I remember a young black man in my high school history class talking about women crossing a street when passing him if there was no one else there, which he perceived as fear of black men in particular. Was he right? Maybe, maybe it was just fear of men generally, but it clearly did have an effect. Which isn't to say it was unreasonable of the street-crossers.

Discriminating in employment though, in giving people seats on planes, on pulling over their cars, based on statistical analysis of sex or race or religion, is at another level. Which is why we've drawn legal lines around those things, and need to have very strong grounds to justify going over those lines. Grounds that go beyond that aggregate set of numbers.

Kiwiinkits · 24/09/2019 17:22

Honestly I think if you’d go so far as request female staff only to do nappy changes you’ve got serious anxiety /mental health issues and you should seek help, not impose your weirdo fixations on your kid. If I was a nursery manager I’d tell you kindly to choose a different nursery and hand you the number of a psychiatrist. HTH

Kiwiinkits · 24/09/2019 17:24

Luckily I’m not a nursery manager as I can’t stand bullshit, and parents come with a lot of bullshit these days.

Lumene · 27/09/2019 00:23

You would seriously tell a parent who wanted their female child to be given intimate care by female staff they should see a psychiatrist kiwi ?

Lumene · 27/09/2019 00:28

No winter the OP wasn’t, but the world has actually gone pretty mad which was the point I was replying to. No reported cases but female prison officers have had to search Male sex offenders on the grounds that they say they are women.

You are right it’s a different issue though so apologies for the derail.

Kiwiinkits · 27/09/2019 00:38

No but I’d think it.

Lumene · 27/09/2019 00:45

You would think someone preferring their female baby toddler be changed by a female needed psychiatric help. And you think they are the ones being discriminatory and having ‘weirdo fixations’. Interesting viewpoint.

traceyracer · 27/09/2019 00:48

This sort of thing would likely discourage men from getting jobs in the childcare industry.

Aaarrgghhh · 27/09/2019 11:22

Lumene So it’s okay to force women to literally take on all of the shit job because some people think all men are pervs? Children don’t have the feelings we do when it comes to intimate areas, they just need to be cleaned, with safety guidelines being followed the baby will be fine changed by a male.

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