Middle ground

[HDDD]

I've been trying to follow conversations online in regard to gender critical thought, pronouns, selfID, transrights, lesbian erasure etc. And all I can find is extreme views on both sides. Is there a middle ground? Is it here? Is Twitter too toxic? I want to be informed not screamed at.

HDDD

So this person was in favor of forced ball waxing? I'd be distancing myself before I found out what other unpleasant views they might be harboring.

HDDD

No, not all trans privilege activists are men and nor are all gender critical people women, but I think you have to bear in mind this is a feminist board.

That means discussion will differ here from a gender critical forum that starts from a free speech perspective for example.

It means that posters here will defend and work to protect the rights of all women, even those women who are trans privilege activists themselves and so forth.

If you do not personally arrive at an anti-trans privilege view from a feminist perspective then sometimes things may not be expressed the way you would express them, or sometimes topics have a narrower focus than you would give yourself. I find that myself because I didn't come to my views from a feminist perspective.

But this is a feminist board so I think it is important to respect the culture that exists here.

To add to Arnold's comment, there are lots of different routes to arriving at being gender critical, mostly because what's being demanded by TRAs is absolutely barking mad. So figuring out how to live with both having reached the same conclusion for different reasons and the possibility that at some point in order to accomplish your goals you may have to work with people you normally would not consider ideological allies is pretty much a requirement.

TheProdigalKittensReturn
Without all the facts she was in the 'but they have a right to be waxed by someone'. I directed her to facts. I now refuse to debate trans issues with her for the sake of my sanity.

Nobody has a right to be waxed, except possibly by themselves. It's not exactly CPR given to a person who's having a heart attack.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers
Genuine question - have I disrespected the culture?

TheProdigalKittensReturn
Agree wholeheartedly

Novembers...what was your question?

I'm confused as to when this was declared Women Be Nice day, given that it's in multiple threads. Almost like Lang is right and there's a reason people are doing it that has nothing to do with kindness.

(My personal recommendation would be to simply not engage if after a few rounds of back and forth the same pattern is still happening, but then again I'm a confirmed meaniepants.)

HDDD asks: Surely getting more women, and these women in particular, onside and understanding in order to effect change is the key?

Yes. This is what is meant by feminist consciousness-raising.

Basically, the process by which we alert one another to the fact that there's a pattern to the dynamic, on both an individual and class level, and refine our ability to spot it and manage it in the real world.

It's an ongoing thing. It's not a fixed point that you do once. It's what you're doing every time you're here trying to engage. You're on the right path. Keep it up.

have I disrespected the culture?

Not in my view, no, and if it came across that I was suggesting you did I apologise. I'm new in these parts though so cannot speak for others.

I was just trying to express, probably badly, why a feminist board may concentrate on one aspect (male activists) more than another (female ones) while a different kind of forum may not.

There's probably no way to express AGP without harming others

You're thinking mainstream. Mainstream is patriarchal.

Flip it.

There's no way for AGP to emerge and express within the human mind, without others having already been harmed.

We are those others who have already been harmed. All women, everywhere, going back millennia.

Sexism programmed into the brain via the process of social conditioning is a prerequisite for AGP.

It’s hard being in the middle as Most of the time, both sides are only interested in having their own ideas confirmed and not much else. Anything else is either transphobic or misogynistic, depending on who you’re talking too.

I’m very much with other women on TWANW and that some spaces, events, shortlists etc do need to stay XX female only, and self ID is a terrible idea. Also that some TRA’s are dangerous, shut down discussion and refuse to debate.

However, I’ll always respect someone’s right to be addressed by their desired pronouns, I agree trans people can and are oppressed too and that shouldn’t be ignored and I disagree with some of the sneering that goes on and shut down of debate.

I think to really truly find a solution, people do need to come together - e.g third spaces rather than women saying ‘it’s mens issue to solve’ and transwomen saying ‘we are women!’

I don’t think it’s solely a feminism vs men’s activism issue either, as is portrayed. It’s a people issue. Both sides have things to lose and it affects children, women and men.

It’s so sensitive as neither side can ‘win’ without another side ‘losing’ E.g the suffragettes fighting for the right to vote didn’t take away men’s rights to vote. Ending of slavery didn’t mean white people had to become slaves. Whereas in this instance, it’s either women get their right to spaces as XX only and transwoman lose their right to live as a woman, or transwomen get their right to be seen as woman, but women lose their right to single sex spaces, so it’s no wonder it’s so emotive.

It’s hard being in the middle, neither side wants to talk to you and you’re shouted down from both sides!

Some people call me a ‘terf’ others a TRA. It’s a strange old subject, I’ve never seen a ‘activism’ quite like it, but anyway without waffling, I don’t think there will be much ‘middle ground’ discussion. So like with any debate - Just say what you think, listen to what others think, make up your own mind and don’t let your voice get shouted down.

You're trying to teach your granny to suck eggs, Tyro. I've probably been a radfem longer than you've been alive.

Like someone said earlier, there was a middle ground, and TRAs decided it wasn't good enough. Middle ground was "we'll tolerate some male trans people in women's spaces if they're making a lot of effort and also they're obviously gay so probably not going to hurt anyone in the bogs", and then TRAs decided that they wanted men with beards who ID was women on Tuesdays to be allowed into the changing rooms at the swimming pool and anyone who objects should die in a fire. And so now some women have gone "well, if that's how it's going to be then no to all of you then". Which is not an unreasonable response to having people piss all over your boundaries and then call you a bigot for complaining about the mess.

Tentacle I appreciate you asking but I think I'm just going to read the other thread when I get a chance and engage with the subject privately tbh. I'm not on here to antagonise anyone, it's not exactly been a pleasant part of my day.

ProdigalKittens - ah, I feel honoured that you've identified as my granny.

Seriously though. I know you know, but that doesn't mean everyone else knows too. HDDD obviously didn't know, now everyone reading who hadn't already got it has had the principle drawn out, we're making progress.

The radical ideas go out into the mainstream and get perverted by the patriarchy. That's why we constantly go round and round the merry-go-round of establishing that, yep, patriarchy still exists.

I appreciate you asking but I think I'm just going to read the other thread when I get a chance and engage with the subject privately tbh. I'm not on here to antagonise anyone, it's not exactly been a pleasant part of my day.

It was Datun that asked. I was just the follow up.

You mentioned that you had a question and Datun is happy to answer it. I'm not sure what it is you want really.

It seems we can't do right for doing wrong. I am well aware that the best result for many, many people would be if the damn women would just shut the fuck up. Unfortunately for them, we don't. Which is why we get so fucked off when we get told we are not doing it to everyone's satisfaction.

I ain't about to send out evaluation surveys. I couldn't give a shit if people are unhappy with my responses.

If you want it done better then fucking do it.

Until then.

I think there is an inherent tension in a space that contains both seasoned feminist campaigners and women coming across these ideas for the first time, as well as some people who just wandered in because they heard that people were talking about what's happening with trans activism here who may not be feminists or even women. Probably for the best to have some people willing to explain and others willing to express their displeasure towards those who don't want an explanation so much as a pat on the head, an ice lolly, and an individualized precis of the entire debate so far because reading is hard.

I'll drink to that, ProdigalKittens.

After all, a hive mind is what they want us to have. Sod that.

As long as you don't make me drink gin! I know it's a MN tradition but I'm a conscientious objector to things that taste like punishment.

Tentacle

Ah I see, apologies to Datun then, that comment slipped the net as by that point I had so many angry paragraphs to respond to. Which is obviously what I have been trying to say happens to lots of people on these threads.

Tbh I've made it very clear what I want. At first I wanted to reach out a hand to OP and say I've found the same thing, since then I've mainly wanted to be left alone. I completely understand why women will feel annoyed and won't want to spend their time educating others on this subject, I've been there myself around other topics, and other posters have eloquently explained why the tension is there between veterans and beginners. I respect that. I have no desire to spend all night arguing with people I basically agree with but who are understandably too angry with the situation to see it.

The only point I ever wanted to make was that it's a shame it's so hard to find the actual information and that if people are tired of explaining it, but still care about more people joining the cause, then a lot more people might become clued up if the annoyed regulars just ignored the comments asking for guidance rather than swamping them with snark and anger, because somebody will probably be along that doesn't mind eventually. It is ultimately counterproductive to getting enough voices behind the cause. It is the snark that I objected to, not the not answering.

But I have long since conceded that patience is too annoying for the people on here so I will disengage with the subject, yet this is not enough for you. What do you want?

What do you want

You said you had a question. So ask it.

But I have long since conceded that patience is too annoying for the people on here so I will disengage with the subject

If you had any idea of the times I have patiently explained to hundreds of people, who didn't tell me I was doing it wrong, you'd perhaps rethink that statement.

Sloe gin is the way to go kittens

Just started two bottles

I dont like gin...but i can put away a lot of sloe gin