Pronouns, again.

[EverylittleAlps]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/13/pronouns-gender-he-she-they-natalie-wynn-contrapoints

The gist, if you can't be bothered to read it, is that even trans and non-binary people are finding pronoun-cements a drag, if you will.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/13/pronouns-gender-he-she-they-natalie-wynn-contrapoints

Of course they are because everyone knows they are a lie. It is about power or more specifically the power to make others bend to your will. Not so good when you have to do the same to others,

I think this article is worth reading.

This bit particulary resonated with me.

the pressure of pronoun introductions often makes me feel uncomfortable. Actively announcing myself as a she/her makes it seem like I’m making my entire identity about my gender, which feels regressive.
Further, while pronoun introductions are supposed to be about recognizing that gender is complex, it sometimes seems as though they – paradoxically – reinforce gender binaries. Announcing yourself as a “she”, “he” or “they” would appear to buy into the notion that a “he” is completely different from a “she” – and if you don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles you should identify yourself as a “they”.

Wouldn’t it be better if we just worked towards a future where “he” and “she” weren’t weighted with so much meaning? What if we worked to break those limitations down instead?

Fuck me! Having to introduce myself as 'she/her' would do my head in. I never give a thought to what I am.

...other than 'me'

...around whom the world turns

It’s entirely possible, Juells, that everyone is calling you (or me, or anyone else) ‘he’ behind your back. I cannot see why this would be a problem, aside from being a bit weird. We’d remain female.

The only time it’s jarring is if the person is engaging in behaviour inappropriate for their sex, ie ‘he is going into the ladies’ toilet’. That sentence with the person’s preferred ‘she’ has quite a different inference.

Of course pronouns cement regressive gender stereotypes. What do they think?!

When someone is introducing themself as she/her and is claiming it has nothing to do with their sex, what is it to do with?

And it must absolutely come from people who either want to inhabit those gender stereotypes or cement them in others. Otherwise it wouldn't have arisen.

For example, men who fetishise women, being called she/her, has a massive sexual reward.

Likewise people who claim to be non-binary. I don't doubt their motivation is to escape the gender stereotyping, but in doing so, they are cementing its existence. Far better to address its existence.

And as for gender fluidity which inhabits gender stereotypes on alternate days, depending on clothes...

TirisfalPumpkin
It’s entirely possible, Juells, that everyone is calling you (or me, or anyone else) ‘he’ behind your back.

Only if they're mentally unwell, surely? Why would anyone be calling me 'he'? Genuine question. Why do you think that's entirely possible? Why would they do that when I'm obviously female? Do you think that the vast majority of people are delusional and go around referring to women as men?

One of the things I struggle to get my head round is back in the day referring to a male as "she" because he didn't fully conform to male stereotypes was an insult. (And vice versa). Now it's an affirmation.

I have a similar problem when I see young people talking about being "queer" and you know damn well they would not have been the target of "queer bashers" 20-30 years ago.

I didn’t phrase that well. I meant it’s possible (if unlikely), and ^it wouldn’t make any difference to observable facts^. It was in response to your comment about you not giving a thought to it, like presumably most reasonable people.

Likewise people who claim to be non-binary.

Wynn claimed to be non binary first, before Wynn claimed to be a woman.

I mostly think the obsession with pronouns betrays just how ridiculously privileged these activists are.

Do they not realise there are thousands upon thousands of people out there who have no clue what a pronoun is? Just how sheltered and comfortable are their lives that they don't immediately think of those people and how they are excluded?

"Wouldn’t it be better if we just worked towards a future where “he” and “she” weren’t weighted with so much meaning? What if we worked to break those limitations down instead?"

Err, yes, genius. That's exactly what a lot of people were trying to do before the arrival of the genders and pronouns brigade.

Announcing yourself as a “she”, “he” or “they” would appear to buy into the notion that a “he” is completely different from a “she”

That’s what they want isn’t it? They want to emphasise now they are NOT male as much as possible. It’s controlling. If the world would just accept that pronouns refer to sex rather than gender, there wouldn’t be this problem.

I mostly think the obsession with pronouns betrays just how ridiculously privileged these activists are.

I agree. For most of my life, the only people with different pronouns were Royalty. Her Maj on twitter: pronouns One/We.

I read that article as "Hah! I see they are turning on themselves now. Good."

"Actively announcing myself as a she/her makes it seem like I’m making my entire identity about my gender, which feels regressive."

Ooh, she was so close to 'getting it' there ! Just one more push, but she went off at a tangent instead.

Yes, of course people who insist on preferred pronouns are making their entire identity about their gender - why is that a surprise to you? And of course it is regressive, the whole bloody ideology is regressive, so - duh.

"Sometimes pronoun introductions only happen when a gender non-conforming person is in the room, for example. Naturally, that person can feel singled out. In Zimman’s view, you solve this problem by normalizing pronoun introduction so everyone is clear it is standard and hasn’t been rolled out specifically for them."

Right. So everyone who doesn't subscribe to the concept of preferred pronouns must behave as if they do, and must introduce themselves stating 'their' pronouns even if nobody needs them to.

The very definition of compelled speech.

Right. So everyone who doesn't subscribe to the concept of preferred pronouns must behave as if they do, and must introduce themselves stating 'their' pronouns even if nobody needs them to.

For the sake of one person who wants everyone to do it so they're not singled out. Thereby, singling themselves out even more. And irritating the fuck out of everyone else in the process.

I will never, ever, at any stage in my life, ever announce my pronouns, or be forced to in any circumstance.

I was just coming over to post this - too slow as always. So pronoun introductions are becoming 'problematic'? Super.

It's always nice to see identity politics turn in on itself - keeps them out from under the feet of the rest if us.

I am sick of being lectured on about 'progressive politics' by a newspaper that has espoused the basic values that underpins liberal society, they didn't believe in free speech and free debate, prefering to use whatever the latest woke label is for heretic to shut down anyone who disagrees

" So everyone who doesn't subscribe to the concept of preferred pronouns must behave as if they do, and must introduce themselves stating 'their' pronouns even if nobody needs them to"

it's a simple freedom of belief issue, if people want to express that sentiment they should do so, nobody cares but they shouldn't turn the ritual in to a shibboleth and pressurise others to do so.

Sigh back in my woke days I put my pronouns in my materials because my job encouraged it for “inclusivity” and I wanted to be nice.

I peaked about 3 months later and removed them lol.

Sometimes if I’m asked why I don’t do it, I tell a little white lie like in the OP: that I don’t want to force trans and NB people to put themselves.

Actually it’s because I don’t believe anyone has a right to their own second person pronouns (just the first person ones) but I don’t think that would go over as well.