Pronouns, again.

[EverylittleAlps]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/13/pronouns-gender-he-she-they-natalie-wynn-contrapoints

The gist, if you can't be bothered to read it, is that even trans and non-binary people are finding pronoun-cements a drag, if you will.

I can't be arsed to devote a thread to this but ffs:

Sam Smith changes pronouns to they/them www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-49688123

He may feel somewhere in between, but he's definitely actually male.

I will never, ever, at any stage in my life, ever announce my pronouns, or be forced to in any circumstance

^this
however, following something I read earlier today I may now say 'I don't mind - say what you see'
And hopefully watch their eyes glaze over.

I used to be a member of a Facebook group for editors, about editing. I love language and I always found the discussions interesting. Recently someone wrote a long post about transgender-friendly language, what pronouns to use, what's best and most inclusive, what words to substitute for what, etc.
I couldn't resist. I commented that if any editor tried to change the pronouns in my writing (fiction) I'd change it right back to how it was, since the point of writing is not to confuse readers and they do need to know if characters are male or female. You can't imagine the shitstorm I called down! One after the other they joined in, calling me a transphobe and hopelessly ignorant etc. Lots of angry emojis! But a few likes as well.
I would not have defended myself. I would have simply replied that it's an interesting topic from a professional point of view... how WOULD you edit a novel so as to never assume a character's "gender"? How would you edit a love story, so as to allow for the fact that the females MIGHT have penises or the men COULD have babies... which would be the logical outcome in perfectly trans friendly editing.
I think it would make for most tedious, unenjoyable reading, and it would have made for an interesting professional discussion. But by the time I was ready to respond I'd been kicked out of the group.

The group was, I should add, use based.

I love the way Sam Smith came out as non-binary six months ago. How is it not a non-issue?

*USA based

Why don’t they just come straight out and say “I’m Shelia, and I’m special, treat me as such”. Because that’s really what they’re saying.

Hey guys guess what?! I'm a non-non-binary person (hexadecimal?)
Anywah I just wanted you all to know. I feel better for sharing.

Oh no I am binary. And soooo confused

Right. So everyone who doesn't subscribe to the concept of preferred pronouns must behave as if they do, and must introduce themselves stating 'their' pronouns even if nobody needs them to.

And must also, if female, highlight their membership of the oppressed sex class and imply that they willingly identify as a member of the oppressed sex class. In a world where women with unisex names do better at work than women with feminine names, pronoun introductions/email sigs/etc are a form of sex discrimination.

“I like to think of someone’s pronouns in a similar way to how I’d think about their name

Well I have huge problems remembering anyone’s name. Yet never in my life, have a had a significant problem working out the correct pronoun to use for a person.

So fuck right off with your need to complicate something that should be simple, just because you want to pretend you’re something you’re not.

Okay, I feel better now.

say what you see

It’s like Roy Walker on Catchphrase. You can follow it with

It’s good, but it’s not right

I believe that pronouns relate to biological sex and only biological sex. I don't believe in gender. Therefore I will always use pronouns appropriate for biological sex.

So why should someone else's belief trump mine and force me to deny reality? Especially since I suspect that the vast majority of people if asked would agree with me.

Anyone trying to force someone else to deny reality, and to use unfamiliar, special language which goes against common usage just for them is a bully.

A year ago, unaware of all this Pronoun bullshit, if someone had asked me, "What are your pronouns?" I would have been bemused if they seemed non-threatening or hyper-vigilant if not, concerned that I was in the presence of someone with a mental health problem whose behaviour might escalate unpredictably. In both cases I would have to have asked what they meant. (I have worked on secure wards in a psychiatric hospital BTW, where hyper-vigilance is necessary to survival, so no cute comments about "Why would you be afraid of someone with a mental health problem?" please.)

Today, I would be irritated rather than bemused and, in both cases, I don't think I would be able to restrain myself from saying, "I'm not playing that game."

I will not give my pronouns as it's part of a whole gender ideology that I don't believe in.

Anyway, from the article She was also accused of benefiting from “passing privilege” because she is a conventionally attractive white woman

This is where language is getting mangled to the point where it makes no sense. I am a conventionally attractive white woman but I can't imagine being accused of having passing privilege. That surely can only apply to a man pretending to be a woman. Women don't pass as women.

The article would make a lot more sense if every she was replaced by he, to accurately reflect the sex of the person under discussion.

The thing that really does my head in is that if pronouns are very individualised, they aren't really useful. Unless they are simple to use without much remembering or asking it takes more effort to find out and remember the proper noun and the accompanying pronoun. So if that is the case it would be simpler to bin the pronouns altogether and just use the proper nouns.

As for it now being problematic and a problem to solve so that everyone feels comfortable, I really think some people are always desperate for a new problem. It's a way to see who is on the cutting edge, in the in-group, like all jargon.

Like fuck are other people going to compel my speech! I'm over being polite now too. I'll say what I want thanks.

Lamahaha.

I edit fiction. It’s a big enough task to avoid pronoun confusion in scenes with two or more people of the same sex, can you imagine if everyone was referred to by “they” and “them”?

Readers wouldn’t know who was doing/saying what to whom. You’d have to make extraordinary use of proper names, and you’d lose flow and music, doing that.

Here’s my one-line objection to sex- neutral pronouns: “They raped them.” Where I can, I ask people what’s disappeared in that sentence.

Jeannette Winterson’s “Written On the Body” does artfully avoid ever specifying the sex of the narrator, and that creates an interesting effect. Though that’s not at all the same thing as using sex-neutral pronouns throughout. She does make very clear that the lover so desired by the narrator is a woman.

I’m studying for a Masters at a university in the USA right now and on our very first day everyone had to write namecards that also displayed their ‘pronouns’ and at every meeting where we’re new, we have to state our pronouns as well as our names. I absolutely HATE it. It is so reductive and ridiculous. The first time I said, ‘Hi I’m InionEile and, well, I’m a woman so that’s that’ and got some baleful looks so I felt I had to conform after that.

Honestly I hate it. It serves no purpose other than to emphasize the gender binary and make us focus more on who is male and who is female in the room. It centers gender in everything instead of making it less significant. Nobody has used non-binary pronouns so far and if they had, it would only have made them stand out more, not feel more comfortable.

I agreed with the article on some points. I hope this is a fad that people grow out of because it’s such nonsense. It’s like virtue-signaling on steroids and it is also compelled speech, forcing me to reveal information about myself that I don’t want to announce to a roomful of people.

I use she / her pronouns because I’m a woman - adult human female - and those are the rules of the English language but I don’t identify with those pronouns in any way - ‘she / her’ says nothing about who I am. The whole practice reeks of groupthink and brainwashing.

Clearly I am x and I think all this pronouns stuff is nonsense is on the banned speech list?

I'm going to get in first on the next fad. My dog has gender neutral pronouns. Ze says it suits zer better.

My kitchen table on the other hand is a she. If you refer to her using 'it' that is literal violence.

Absolutely, Stealth. Voicing any kind of critical thinking around the current gender ideology is on the banned speech list. No independent thought of any kind is permitted on the pronouns front. It’s literal violence!

Pronoun badges are ridiculous and a waste of time IMO but at least you're actually interacting with the person involved.

The thing is that ON HERE it's coercive control and bullying trying to enforce rules around 'misgendering' because we can't know for a fact the pronouns of people who haven't told us.

If we're not going by sex, what are we basing it on? Length of hair? Lots of old school rockers who were men had long hair.

Miranda Yardley is a transsexual who dresses in a feminine way but I happen to know that he uses correct sex pronouns because I've read his blog. But if I'd only ever heard about him or seen a picture, I wouldn't know what his pronouns were. I'd know his sex though.

I don't know the pronouns of most people directly. MN trying to impose pronouns on us when they and we haven't even had a direct discussion with the people involved is bullying.

I've found contrapoints an engaging watch actually. I don't agree with all of what they say, but I think they come across well.

I've watched the rabid TRAs turn on Natalie with no surprise at all. There are rules see. And then there's the total jealousy.

And the individual goes on and on. Cos that's not batshit at all, nope, no no no