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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Margaret Atwood defends women's right to work in strip clubs because she thinks it's 'empowering'

294 replies

stumbledin · 12/09/2019 23:43

Speaking to Emma Barnett on BBC Radio 5 Live's Headliners, the 79-year-old said women who work in strip clubs can 'feel in control of the room' and earn more money than coffee shop staff.

Ms Atwood, whose new book The Testaments was published this week, told BBC Five Live that people protesting against the clubs should 'put their energy somewhere else that's really really important – like with environmental protests.'

The author said it was important to ensure women were not exploited, adding: 'Some of the most empowering women in the American West were the madams who were running the brothels because in that era they were saving up the money up for the girls, they were setting them up after they made that money they were taking care of them and it was much better than having a pimp.'

Ms Atwood also spoke out about different kinds of feminism, adding: 'I don't refuse the label of feminism, I say, 'which kind are you talking about?'

'I am the kind that endorses organisations like Equality Now. I am not the kind that says things like all men should be pushed off a cliff or all that all male babies should be killed at birth.'

Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad

(This is the Daily Mail so not sure if accurate transcript. Did anyone listen to the interview?)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7457063/Margaret-Atwood-defends-womens-right-work-strip-clubs.html

OP posts:
Melroses · 12/09/2019 23:54

I am not the kind that says things like all men should be pushed off a cliff or all that all male babies should be killed at birth

Is that really a thing? Confused

I think the only people who find stripping off empowering are the ones who make shed loads of money out of it, and they do not make shedloads of money just because they have stripped off, but because they already have the power to make the money by doing it. Otherwise it does not really work.

VulcanRay · 13/09/2019 00:08

I said it on a thread about ‘boudoir shoots’ earlier, but if [stripping] was empowering we’d all be wearing lingerie to job interviews.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/09/2019 00:15

Is that really a thing?

She is a writer of dystopian fiction ... she made that up.

Gingerkittykat · 13/09/2019 00:55

I'm sure all of the trafficked woman and girls working or the women having sex for the price of a needle full of heroin find it very empowering.

StopThePlanet · 13/09/2019 01:22

Well she isn't very wise for a 79yr old. Doubt she has spent much (if any) time in the environments of which she speaks.

I worked almost every position in hospitality (sous chef, server, bartender, manager, porter, valet, etc) at almost every possible type of establishment (hotels, bars, nightclubs, restaurants, private clubs, etc) full-time over a period of 15yrs.

Once I started working a full-time office job I needed to balance my pay as I earned significantly more in hospitality ($20-25k/yr more) than I did at a career mid-level professional position (education & licensure required) at big and small companies.

Thus, I bartended for about three more years as my night job while working a highly stressful professional day job. I couldn't get a job in normal hospitality where I was guaranteed night hours (they all required some day work - and wouldn't hire me because I wasn't available before 5pm M-F).

Disclaimer: At the following establishments I was fully clothed (clavicle to toes covered) and ONLY bartended... no dancing, no VIP rooms - just slinging expensive drinks.

So, I started in bikini bars as I thought they would be inoffensive enough until I discovered that they were quiet yet known prostitution fronts. Most of the women that worked there were girls 18-20yrs old with a few in their late 20s - they were all from destitute families and wore their suffering on their faces until a customer was around. Their very existence pained them, these places exploited them to sell alcohol and took a portion of their earnings from each "approved service" (i.e. officially open or private lap dances - actually blow jobs, aided masturbation, full penetrative sex). Once I discovered the truth I tried to speak sense with my dancer co-workers but to no avail so I exited quickly (after trying two different establishments in two different cities close to home).

Because of the aforementioned experience I found a bartending job at a full nude "gentlemen's club" thinking in my naiveté that because alcohol was banned in these places by law that the women would have better experiences and more control (as well as no sex work above dancing). What I discovered there was that the dancers were constantly going to the bathroom to snort cocaine to get them through the humiliation of being objectified and coerced into back VIP room sex acts. So... I didn't make it there either. I left every night angry and finally left when I realized that yet again nothing I said would save these women from their misery or motivate them to find another path. These women did not believe they had any value beyond their bodies... no conjecture, they said the same in their own words. The full nude environment was so brutal that I didn't try a second establishment.

Finally because I needed the income, I decided that topless clubs were the way to go - that all this stuff I had heard about empowerment in exotic dancing had to exist somewhere. That I could go to a topless place, make my bartending money and be ok enough with the environment. Looking back my naiveté was so hilarious, so pitiful - it was desperate rationalization for my own financial survival. Now don't get me wrong out of all of the hospitality jobs I ever worked I made the most in the topless club I reference below. And when I say I made a lot I mean I worked two nights a week 6hrs/night and walked out with $1,500-$2,000 in cash EVERY shift. The dancers kept more distance from customers than other clubs and were "not allowed to drink" due to legal restrictions but the customers bought them drinks and managers turned a blind eye. I thought this place was pretty okay for a few months - they had a couple hundred dancers aged 20-29yrs, it was incredibly busy, the dancers seemed to make a lot and seemed okay with it. But there was one thing that kept fucking me up about the place - the dancers basically worshipped the general manager to his face and one would get called into his office after every staff meeting. One week I got called into the general manager's office because he didn't like that I didn't exhibit total capitulation to his ideas. Standing across from him while he sat at his desk he told me that he would break me and I would be like every other 'whore' in that place by the time he was done with me. He then told me to come around the desk and suck his dick - because I am who I am I told him to fuck himself for which I got fired of course. As I marched out of there I realized why the place seemed okay - because they did a really good job of hiding the exceptionally shady stuff and the general manager had all of female employees sucking his dick. Those dancers were just as abused (possibly moreso) than their counterparts at the other clubs but they hid it better because their incomes depended on it.

After all those experiences and seeing so much money made in those places it was beyond disheartening to realize that my value as a woman in society is held highest when agreeing to degradation. That all of my tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, hours of study, licensure and continuing professional education was less valued than the size of my breasts, waist, and backside. That even as a bartender fully clothed I made more money in a year for a winning smile and being a talented bartender than I made in almost two years at my professional job (that is $45k/yr professional job 40hrs/wk versus $75k/yr bartending in strip clubs 12hrs/wk... YES 12hrs/wk = $75k/yr). I made more than the women selling their bodies, I made A LOT more than they did - there were only a few bartenders skilled enough to work nights (volume, drink complexity, etc) but there were hundreds of dancers.

I only lasted in these environments a total of 18 months - I went from one place to the next as described above and finally realized that I was damaging/abusing/degrading myself psychologically from just being in the environments. After that 18 months I decided that I had to wait until a new night club opened up that was just a dance club that sold alcohol - no exotic dancers/no nudity. I made about $250/night at the dance club but not $1 felt dirty not one penny caused me pain for myself or other women - the money I made there felt right. I didn't save as much money as I anticipated over those three years nor did I care... I walked away from my last bartending job crying because I would miss my co-workers not because I was afraid for them.

What Margaret needs to understand is that those environments are destructive by nature. None of the women I knew that danced or sold sex felt empowered - they felt trapped, they felt invalidated, they saw no value in themselves. The few porn actresses I knew felt the same as the aforementioned. The only dancers or sex workers or porn actresses I ever met that claim they enjoyed what they did and that they felt empowered were women that were from fairly affluent families and were (honestly) just too lazy to make a career choice that required effort beyond taking a dick somewhere in their body OR were doing it merely to piss their families off.

Moral of the story... no female/woman sex work is actually empowering. It is all a facade, a lie told by men to women that internalize men's desires and regurgitate them as female empowerment. Except for the affluent women who make these choices without thinking about them or understanding how it affects the world, the women who do this "work" are ultimately destroyed by the industry.

Even though my experiences were all in the US, I don't believe it is any different in the UK or anywhere else. The method of abuse is similar if not same and damaging to all women and girls.

Believing that any female/women's sex work is empowering IMO is cognitive dissonance to the millionth power.

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 01:35

Just sticking my head in as a former "stripper". Well, actually exotic dancer, strippers are who you'd hire to turn up at a pub/private do. Think kissogram. Just pointing that out.

Working in your lingerie is not empowering. Ridiculous statement. I do love how everyone has an outspoken opinion on our industry, always with zero knowledge or experience.

What's empowering is walking out of a safe environment, every inch covered by cameras and security staff (in ten years of dancing, I called security twice, both times because the guy wanted to stay longer and we were closing) with four figure wedges of cash every night.

What's empowering is being with your best friends every night, it doesn't even feel like work. And the friendships you form are life long.

What's empowering is realising just how astute and capable the women around you are. I'm a qualified accountant. Two degrees as well. Colleagues have included a midwife, a barrister, a psychologist, a girl that ran her own bakery, a teacher, a mechanic. So many different professions.

What's empowering is the freedom and flexibility the minimal hours with huge remuneration give you.

What's empowering is the comradeship of everyone working together. The bustle in the changing rooms. Teaching each other tricks on the pole. The DJ muttering as we've all picked new stage songs and not told him. The bar staff making huge tips of us ordering 10 "house wines" a night (lemonade with a dash of redbull and lime at £7 a go) and smiling as they pour them.

I've stopped dancing. This year actually. Pregnant, and will be too old by the time I'm fit enough to go back. Breaks my heart. It's the best job I've ever had. I'll miss the girls, the club, the lifestyle, unbelievably.

In a decade, I have never met a trafficked girl. Anyone "dancing their way through college," is a myth. We don't have daddy issues. I've dealt with far more wankers, sexism, and loose morals as a chartered accountant than I've ever encountered as a dancer. I can tell you right now, dancers are the most hard working, loyal crowd I've ever been privileged enough to meet.

And these bloody "feminists" who want to save us from a job that we absolutely love? Have the damn audacity to tell us we're exploited? (Get in the bin, Karen.) A job we do actively out of choice. Are proud of. Work damn hard at, and certainly not because we're too thick to do anything else?

Oh do fuck off dear.

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 01:47

Sorry, just had to comment on the American post that wasn't there when I started my post.

What an utter load of shit Grin

"The management made all the girls suck his dick"

In a decade of working little clubs, to spearmint rhino, this just doesn't happen.

"Dancers too lazy to do anything other than take a dick in every hole"

It's literally people like you that cause the utter bollocks people think about our profession.

Now maybe in the states where your story comes from, dancers are all prostitutes. They're not, but let's not let that get in the way of your tall tales and extensive year long experience as an uninvolved bar tender Grin. But in the UK, your ridiculous story is unheard of.

Yours sincerely

"Cokehead Courtney" Grin

sillage · 13/09/2019 01:55

Sure, Courtney.

Purpleartichoke · 13/09/2019 02:01

I find it hard to believe that Atwood expressed this opinion. I’m thinking back over her books and I remember scenes where low wage workers are forced into sex with the manager to keep the job that means life or death in the new world order. I’m thinking about women forced to work in sex clubs or starve, but at least they have suits that encase them completely to protect from disease. Nothing about those storylines was empowering. They were women forced to trade their bodies for pennies or risk death on the streets.

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 02:03
Grin

Yes, I can't possibly be right, as someone who's done the job for a decade.

People can't bear to accept that I'm right. Because they can't and don't want to get their heads round it. Uneducated and clueless about an industry but seem to think they've got an equal opinion and understanding on how it works.

How can someone who's a qualified accountant with two degrees, possibly choose to dance instead??? I mean that goes against all the stuff I "know." Can't be true. Only explanation Grin

That's a reflection on them. Not me.

sillage · 13/09/2019 02:12

The first time I was in a strip club there were three teenaged boys there getting drinks with fake IDs and having a grand time. I watched them offer a stripper increasing amounts of money to push the high heel of her shoe into her vagina. They found her price, the heel went in, the boys laughed like hyenas.

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 02:32

So you're claiming that as you sat amongst the many drunken 14yr olds, a dancer sat openly in the bar inserting a shoe in her vagina for a few quid from these school children Grin

I (used to) cost £480 an hour. Some people want to sit and chat. Some people want you to dance. Some people want to chat for a bit. Watch you dance. Chat a bit more. One of my regulars would play charades for the whole time. Yes. Really.

But when you went in, school children were getting sex acts for a tenner.

I mean when we're only earning a paltry £480 an hour to yap away, we'll do anything for a few quid. I mean we need too. Clearly.

The club invite 14yr olds in, because y'know they want to be shut down for underage drinking. Well worth the risk too, what with the £100k salaries those teens are bringing in.

Reminds me of the time that my cousin's mates sisters daughters old roommate went in a strip club. She paid a pound and three dancers shagged her husband. And gave her 50p change.

Mmmm hmmmmmm.

BitOfFun · 13/09/2019 02:57

Courtney555, I am genuinely REALLY pleased that you found the camaraderie and other aspects of dancing so rewarding (and wish you all the best for your busy future!). However, not everybody feels the same way, and it's fairly well-evidenced. There are many, many accounts of women who have exited sex-work and erotic dancing etc. with very different stories.

MissLadyM · 13/09/2019 03:05

Courtney555 is it nice is fantasy land? You're full of shit

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 03:20

@BitOfFun

I accept that. And there will be dancers who had a bad time. Whether that's down to the industry, or just them as a person, is subjective. It's can be a very high paid career. If you haven't got what it takes, you won't earn big money. Same as any job.

What I'm saying is, in the decade of living and breathing dancing, I've not met one dancer who needs saving. Who's a prostitute. Who's forced to be there. Who doesn't like it. Not one. And I've met hundreds.

And what's published in the press is the "one in a thousand" as if it's the rule, not the exception. I just want people to know that. I could find you around 300 dancers on my phone right now who will all, without fail tell you, it's fantastic. I could not find you one who would say to the contrary.

But for balance, there's always "Susan" piping up with her stories, because she's been in one. Once. Nine years ago. And seen it on the TV.

It's not the male customers who go into strip clubs that are the assholes. It's women who go in who should be ashamed of their conduct and opinions they feel the need to bestow. Believe me. At my second to last club, the behaviour of female patrons was so poor that we stopped letting groups of women in. They were frankly, embarrassing.

This is based on ten years of direct experience.

BitOfFun · 13/09/2019 03:24

Fair do's, it's not what I've read though, in my admittedly secondhand situation.

Anyway, yadda yadda. Where do I sign up for the "all men should be pushed off a cliff or all that all male babies should be killed at birth" feminism?

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 03:27

@MissLadyM

You sound terribly educated on the subject. Which clubs have you worked in, and for how long, to base the unfounded opinion you're peddling?

Yep....didn't think so Grin

Want to tell me about any recent updates to any tax laws to pretend you know anything about accountancy too? Or is dancing the only career you like to talk tripe about whilst being entirely clueless...

Yep.... Grin

WhatTiggersDoBest · 13/09/2019 03:40

@Courtney55 I think you nailed it. But I feel very empowered by having money. Money buys agency. And I never met anyone who was trafficked. I'm not saying more because I'd have to namechange. God the fantasists who exploit the sex trade to peddle their own bullshit sobstories that fit what people "think" it's like really wind me up.

StopThePlanet · 13/09/2019 03:45

Courtney555

I have direct experience - even if you choose to attempt to discredit it by calling me a liar. Defensive much? I didn't say a word about you - I don't know you.

Firstly, I never referred you as a coke head and I never referred to the girls in the clubs that I worked at as coke heads that is a deliberate twisting of my words. I merely explained what I witnessed - the women who did coke while they worked didn't do it any other time as far as I know - I looked at it like their version of antidepressants and didn't judge them for it. I did plenty of partying at that age (a whole shitload of illicit substances, every weekend as a matter of fact - I just wouldn't do it while working as I saw it as willful negligence). They needed something to help them get through the night and there was no alcohol on premises (at any full nude club here). The other clubs the dancers pretty much all drank alcohol while they worked as did many of the managers as well as many of the bartenders. I found it sad that any of the aforementioned workers not just the dancers would feel the need to take a substance that uninhibited them while working in a dark environment.

Secondly, I still know many of the women of which I speak and continue to be friends with them to this day regardless of their choices of jobs. Their work doesn't make them who they are and even though I don't agree with all of their choices (nor them mine) we enjoy sharing our lives with each other and supporting each other through our own individual challenges. And I never said all dancers perform skin-to-skin sex acts for money, I saw what I saw and I pulled more used condoms off of my shoes nightly to know how frequent it was. And as a bartender, beyond the bouncers I was one of few that could enter VIP-in-session.

Thirdly, I don't have to lie and I find it funny that you would say that to me. IRL (and in FWR) I'm known to be pretty blunt and I really don't care what people think about me on the internet (or IRL unless I love them).

I read my DH your post directed at me and he started laughing and said "well she's been very lucky" because he knows what the women I speak of have dealt with not just from their (my friends) words or my recounting experiences but also because he drove a taxi for three years on the night shift (before we moved to this state - we were in the north previously) and all of his regular fares were dancers and prostitutes/escorts. He was popular because he treated them with respect i.e. opened their doors and didn't ask for sex as payment like many drivers openly did.

I live in Florida - I literally live in fucking paradise nature-wise. But it is a red state and misogyny runs deep hidden beneath polite-ish comments and interactions with men in general. DH and I moved here 22ish years ago and never cease to be amazed by the experiences I have on the regular as well as stories told by friends about their experiences.

I'm glad that you felt you were paid a fair wage. Unfortunately, most women here don't have the privilege of your education nor your previous pay rate.

At the time I knew one 28yr old single mom that was in nursing school working on her B.A. in nursing (we had weekend classes together at the time). She is still one of the most awesome people (and moms) that I have ever met (still my friend 13yrs later) and currently is the Director at a women's birthing center as she changed paths as soon as a better one could be traveled. She grew up in a town called Gibsonton - known very well in the state, her parents were performers and she was the only child that was not plagued with a physical deformity. Her beauty and physical normality caused her to be treated unkindly so she left home at 17yrs old to find her own way. This story is very different as a rule but very common in outcome. Socioeconomic depression is real and alive in Florida, and is demonstrated within 13blocks of my home. There are multi-million dollar homes the next block over from us and complete financial destitution 13blocks in the other direction. Many young girls here turn to sex work or stripping because they've left home for whatever reason and think it's the only way to get by (and sadly sometimes it is). Have you ever been in a full nude strip club along the interstate here in Florida? I have, many are restaurants where truckers stop - girls dance and squat within inches of their faces while they eat their breakfasts. I don't know what those women do or do not do beyond dancing but I know they look miserable and can't make much money in a place like that where you only have to buy a 99 cent cup of coffee to have them wave their bodies within inches of your face.

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 03:48

@BitOfFun

That's exactly our frustration as dancers. What people read is such balony. Then take it at face value. Actually, that's unfair... To one person, it might be slightly representative (after a journalist has finished sensationalising and exaggerating), but behind that story are the 999 rest of us shaking our heads, going "brilliant, more bollocks about us."

I think a large part comes down to women's insecurities/jealousies/competitiveness.

Many can't stand the idea that me (or my colleagues) can simply talk their partner/friend into parting with £1500 to essentially chat with us in our pants. Can't be true. We must be sucking this or that. Because if we're not, well, that means admitting we were just more attractive, or interesting, or sexy, or funny, or that DP will throw his money around on dancers. And many can't bring themselves to do that.

I'm married. I've got no problem with DH going in a strip club. By all means have a £50 dance. I'd be pissed off if he had a £480 dance because he's got a bloody good dancer for a wife. Would be like me paying £500 for a painter and decorator to come in, if I was married to one. So what have said, is if he goes in one, please tip the girls. It's respectful, and acknowledging you are in their place of work.

Should I be jealous? Hell no Grin Christ on a bike, we don't want your husband. We want him to pay if he wants a dance, then we want him to bugger off so we can get in the changing rooms and finish our pizza!

I can also say, it's never attractive women that come in and give us grief. The typical is usually (but not confined to) women from around the ages of 40-50, always in a group, maybe on a hen do, or a works do, overweight, drunk, middle management types. And the stuff that comes out of their mouths? Shameful. These are the ones who will then say they're feminists Hmm

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 03:52

I think you nailed it. But I feel very empowered by having money. Money buys agency. And I never met anyone who was trafficked. I'm not saying more because I'd have to namechange. God the fantasists who exploit the sex trade to peddle their own bullshit sobstories that fit what people "think" it's like really wind me up.

So frustrating isn't it. When you've lived it, breathed it, know everything about it. Then there's some woman who knows sod all, peddling their stories like they've got any substance, and people believe their bullshit over our actual lives.

Glad you had a great time too, just like the rest of us Wine

Winterlife · 13/09/2019 03:52

In Canada, most strip clubs are owned by criminal motorbike gangs. They are a way to launder drug money. I doubt the women working in them feel empowered.

StopThePlanet · 13/09/2019 04:05

Well I guess because your experiences of dancing in the UK is a veritable wilderness of empowerment it must be that way everywhere right?

And only you faceless people on the internet claiming to be a dancers can be believed?

What makes your words more valid than anyone else's?

Other voices recounting experiences are just as valid as yours regardless of your sense of self-importance.

Jesaminecollins · 13/09/2019 04:07

I don't like strip clubs or lap dancing clubs at all because a friend of mine had a husband who was addicted to them. He once spent £1,600 in one night (he told her the girls that gave him dances were high on cocaine). My other half has visited them before we got together and he once saw a live sex show in Amsterdam but if he ever visited one now I would pack his bag and show him the door.

Courtney555 · 13/09/2019 04:19

In Canada, most strip clubs are owned by criminal motorbike gangs. They are a way to launder drug money.

Wtf. No they're not Grin Jesus wept.

Although they are a way to launder money/evade tax full stop. It's not drug money though, people literally can't help but add crap like this Hmm

Most of the high value transactions are by card, because most people don't plan to spend £'000s before they've gone out, so for the say, £200+ amounts it's nearly always on card and they can't "hide" that. But there will be loads of £50's in cash taken throughout the night. For little dances. For stag shows on the stage. And like any bar, loads of drinks via cash. The club won't declare half of that. There's no drugs in that actual, true scenario though, sorry...