Margaret Atwood defends women's right to work in strip clubs because she thinks it's 'empowering'

[stumbledin]

Speaking to Emma Barnett on BBC Radio 5 Live's Headliners, the 79-year-old said women who work in strip clubs can 'feel in control of the room' and earn more money than coffee shop staff.

Ms Atwood, whose new book The Testaments was published this week, told BBC Five Live that people protesting against the clubs should 'put their energy somewhere else that's really really important – like with environmental protests.'

The author said it was important to ensure women were not exploited, adding: 'Some of the most empowering women in the American West were the madams who were running the brothels because in that era they were saving up the money up for the girls, they were setting them up after they made that money they were taking care of them and it was much better than having a pimp.'

Ms Atwood also spoke out about different kinds of feminism, adding: 'I don't refuse the label of feminism, I say, 'which kind are you talking about?'

'I am the kind that endorses organisations like Equality Now. I am not the kind that says things like all men should be pushed off a cliff or all that all male babies should be killed at birth.'

(This is the Daily Mail so not sure if accurate transcript. Did anyone listen to the interview?)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7457063/Margaret-Atwood-defends-womens-right-work-strip-clubs.html

Is there a sort of klaxon that sounds somewhere every time this topic comes up to summon a degree educated Happy Dancer/Stripper?

This thread is getting heated - this song is for the happy strippers on here

Oh, Courtney, I know you would love to characterise all the women who oppose your views on stripping as ugly, saggy-titted harridans who would jump at the chance of getting their kit off and sitting on a random man's lap for a few quid if only they could...

Again no. Not what I've said once. It's what the women like you, who peddle this tripe to us have to invent because you can't argue with our genuine experience. But you can invent stuff we don't say and argue with that. It's kind of all you can do.

Then claim you're supporting women. Laughable. And really, really sad that you've got nothing better to do. Although the stereotype you're creating yourself, you aren't half playing straight into it.

Perhaps have a look at the quote about playing chess with a pigeon. Stick with your flock

@NotTonightJosepheen

I agree with everything you have posted

Which I'm telling you, is what 99% of dancers will tell you

What research is that based on, exactly?

Courtney you haven’t half made me laugh this morning . Not one degree but two, started your PhD yet?
Are you going to give us a paragraph about how you all have sleepovers ,cos you know, it’s so much fun and you develop such a great bond with other women when you’re taking your kit off for grubby money.
👏🏼 For the ‘tripe ’ you’ve invented on this thread, doing a sterling job putting those pesky feminists straight 🤣

If - God forbid - Courtney's tits ever do succumb to gravity, I believe Katie Hopkins might have left a vacancy for a columnist somewhere?

But all Mumsnetters have two degrees. Often one of them is from Oxbridge. Or they left school at 15 with no qualifications and are now running their own incredibly profitable business.

ThePankhurstConnection

I have a dear friend who worked as a model, stripper, dancer for many years, in the US. She is thoughtful, brave and highly intelligent. She has written eloquently and extensively on the subject - the good parts and the bad parts. I have learned a lot from her - I'm not anti-stripping, fwiw.

I strongly suspect she would call bullshit on you, Courtney. But I'm glad you're having so much fun.

It would be great to hear from other women who've been involved in this industry. Because obviously it is a complex topic with lots and lots of different experiences, and no one person can claim to speak for all the women who've been part of it.

Although the Courtney diversion/derail is as interesting and fun as it is predictable, I don't understand why anyone is surprised by Atwood's comments. She's always careful to present herself as 'not a feminist' or 'not that type of feminist'. She's a male-pleasing, socially acceptable feminist. The Handmaid's Tale isn't a feminist text imo (and tbh in the opinions of a lot of people in my feminist book group). I've bought The Testaments because I want to see if her position has changed but I doubt it.

Very interesting that the poster putting forth the pov that Atwood is correct and this is empowering:

• has shown zero respect for other women and is actively putting them down in many of their posts
• has shown zero empathy for other women in their posts
• has shown agist beliefs and body shaming to other women in their posts
• tells women sharing their experiences that their experiences are wrong or they're lying

Nuff said really.

It seems quite surprising if the number of women working in strip clubs who have bad experiences with men is a "tiny, tiny" number, given that the number of women in general who have bad experiences with male violence is so large.

If a pimp or club owner wanted to push some propaganda about how empowerfulising and profitable stripping was, and how trafficking and abuse was a complete myth, how many posts would it take before some nuggets of misogyny accidentally slipped out directed at the women countering his bullshit?
How long might such a person be able to stay in character, I wonder?

#saggytits

Perhaps @Iggi999 all the good men are in strip clubs supporting the empowerment of the women working there

Not empowerment so much as #winningatpatriarchy and #suckstobeyou

Which is about as unliberating for women as it gets.

(Pressed send to soon)

While we’re stuck out here with the arseholes

Just bear in mind there’s nothing the patriarchy welcomes more than its underclass ripping one another’s throats out.

I once had a dance off a male stripper at a hen do. Wouldn't have turned up for something like that myself, but the whole dance happened without injury to me.
So it's possible for men to lap dance/ perform one to one for women (he didn't sit on me though!).

Therefore, there must be another reason why it's women who are objectified & commodified at scale. Some women working in high end places feel empowered by the money, but it's all feeding into the view of women that leads to harassment, at one end of the scale, & rape and trafficking at the other. It's not feminism to pretend otherwise.

I just read the OP again and wanted to ask:
'Some of the most empowering women in the American West were the madams who were running the brothels because in that era they were saving up the money up for the girls, they were setting them up after they made that money they were taking care of them and it was much better than having a pimp.'

Is there evidence that was actually the case? It seems more probable that some madams would be simply female pimps, exploiting the girls, maybe with less physical coercion.
Was that statement fact, an exaggeration based on a few instances, or pretty much fiction?

Stripping can be empowering not because of the actual stripping but because of the financial gain. It empowers women who are unskilled to provide for their families. As does prostitution. Is it ideal? No, of course not. But should we ban women from making a living how they want to (so long as they actually want to)? No. I’d much rather be a stripper than on benefits.

Actually, I am much more pissed off by the “men pushed off a cliff/baby boys killed at birth” comment. Liberal-sex-work-embracing Feminism is at least a real thing. Killing Baby Boys and Pushing Men Off Cliffs Feminism isn’t. But many people think it is- and Atwood talking about it on Radio 5 will fuel the myth.

Look what happened when Julie Bindel wrote a joky piece about putting men in camps......

You could substitute other ways to make money in that paragraph. Try 'drug dealing' - now, I'm not saying these are the exact same thing, but suggesting you consider in what ways they are the same and in what ways they're different.

I'll go first - a negative of stripping/prostitution vs drug dealing is that these 'industries' entrench sexism, women as second class, women as sex objects. More direct harm is caused to women than men by these 'industries'.

I’d much rather be a stripper than on benefits.

Are you for real?

I’d much rather live in a society that ensured that women could meet their and their children’s basic needs for food, shelter and social participation without needing to take their clothes off for men’s sexual arousal.

Oh. My. God.

"I'm all right Jack" - piss off. Just because you don't care or you like the idea doesn't negate the fact that millions of women and girls are being funnelled into an industry that chews them up and spits them out the other side either psychology destroyed, physically shattered or actually dead.

Men and boys aren't going missing and sold into virtual slavery, there are not in existence ANYWHERE, IN ANY GREAT NUMBERS strip clubs brothels and/or rooms in houses where men and boys are dancing for women, addicted to drugs, or required to perform sexual acts on their female bosses.

It's NOT OKAY that this happens. Anywhere. It DOESN'T MATTER if you would rather strip than be on benefits. Women and girls are HARMED by this industry. That is a fact.