Girls wearing skirts not allowed into school - could only be Brighton

[Kit19]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/17886600.lewes-priory-gender-neutral-uniform-protest/

Apparently “gender neutral” means trousers aka the male default. This is utterly insane. I mean I wouldn’t have minded the choice of trousers or skirts for either sex but only trousers?

The picture of the uniform is clearly not gender neutral anyway. There is a very obvious difference between which character is supposed to be female and which is male, even down to the drawn stance of the people. The clothes are not the same on both - the one shown being worn by a girl is skinnier fit, etc.

A better way of addressing this would be let all children chose between the trousers and the skirts, and have rules enforced as to style and fit of both items.

Takes a 'really horrible person' to know one Marguerite and nowhere in my post was a 'class analsis' inferred or mentioned.

Trousers are not more comfortable just for me but for many other women too. Walking around wearing trousers got some very offensive stares and comments way back when. Often we were thought to be dykes! I accept that for some women (I was one) who had very heavy periods but wearing a skirt (on one memorable occasion a dress) when I leaked badly.

And FWIW you're either feminist or you're not - there is NO good or bad feminist. No feminist is better or worse than another. We want equality with men. Simple as that.

Well said Cassian

It's silly to say "let the boys wear skirts" because we as a society aren't there yet and it would create such uproar that no work would get done

Certain posters seem to think the answer to your questions are well don't let girls wear skirts - that makes us equal.

The individual issues you mentioned can be resolved by the institutions concerned. There is no reason to oppose short sleeved shirts, cotton trousers and no tie in summer. Those issues are certainly not resolved by forcing girls to wear trousers (a very odd notion for feminists to applaud but which is getting support from some "feminists" on here)

My son's school did allow short sleeved shirts in summer- my son never chose it because short sleeved formal shirts are naff apparently.

It isn’t. The choice of trousers or a skirt should be open to both boys and girls.

But society is not there. So even if tomorrow school said all boys and male teachers can wear skirts (and dresses for the staff) nowhere sells skirts that fit older teenage boys and it would cause mayhem in school so it is meaningless to say that this could happen.

That's just paying lip service to the idea of equality.

Trousers are not more comfortable just for me but for many other women too

Still completely irrelevant.

“But society is not there”

So that makes it OK to take the choice away from girls?

Skirts weren't part of the uniform at my son's senior school, or at my daughter's special school. It simply wasn't an issue. They had to be 'school trousers' but could be bought from any supplier, so there was a wide variety. At the senior school everyone had to wear a blazer and shirt/blouse with clip on tie, so as near to unisex as possible (with slight variations in cut where necessary). It wasn't called gender neutral , it was just uniform policy and everyone just got on with wearing it without the need for demonstrations. That was just a few years ago.
Obviously there's something more going on here.

But boys are not lining up wanting to wear skirts. Why? Is it because they are feminine and feminine is bad? Or is it because they are less practical that trousers?

Equality and equity are not the same thing. If they were, there wouldn’t be a gender (se) pay gap!

So that makes it OK to take away the choice from girls?
It's school uniform, by definition it's OK to take the choice away.

My point (look up, you might see it flying over your head) is that many school skirts are of a pencil or similarly restrictive style,

Not the case in any of the schools I know of which allow skirts - infact that is ALL of our local schools which allow skirts.

Dd's school uniform skirts have never had to be pencil skirts or straight skirts at all. Infact quite the opposite - those styles not on the list at all.

All have been far less restrictive, knee length styles and fairly thick material. Always worn with tights or socks, mostly the former.

“everyone had to wear a blazer and shirt/blouse with clip on tie”

That’s not unisex. That is definitely male. Women do not wear shirts and ties unless they are in uniform. Which in itself says something about rhe default position.

There is no reason to oppose short sleeved shirts, cotton trousers and no tie in summer.

A shirt, cotton trousers and formal shoes are still not the equivalent of wearing a skirt, blouse and having bare legs though. And for the staff trousers (whether cotton or not) and a shirt are not the same as a sleeveless dress and sandals. More of an equivalent would be allowing male students and staff to wear shorts and summer shoes. But then you require boys to have 2 uniforms - 1 for summer and 1 for winter which the girls don't have to have.

Women do not wear shirts and ties unless they are in uniform. Which in itself says something about rhe default position.

Then do away with shirts, ties and blazers. Do away with men being required to wear shirts, suits and ties as office wear.

The uniform at this school in the op shows one option as being a polo shirt so no tie and no blazer. Good news for everyone.

Takes a 'really horrible person' to know oneMargueriteand nowhere in my post was a 'class analsis' inferred or mentioned

You misread my post. The famous "class analysis" argument was thrown in , possibly by your tag team friend to rubbish what I was saying. Your posts however completely ignore it too as they are all predicated on what suits you.

Trousers are not more comfortable just for me but for many other women too. Walking around wearing trousers got some very offensive stares and comments way back when. Often we were thought to be dykes! I accept that for some women (I was one) who had very heavy periods but wearing a skirt (on one memorable occasion a dress) when I leaked badly

Irrelevant other than for you. You really can't see past your individual situation can you?

And FWIW you're either feminist or you're not - there is NO good or bad feminist. No feminist is better or worse than another

You are the one who trumpeted how you fought for the right to wear trousers and then accused another poster of "dissing" your fight. As for no good or bad feminist you clearly missed , or failed to understand, the many threads on here about the differences between radical and liberal feminism.

Equality should be achieved by giving boys more choice, not girls less.

Which in itself says something about rhe default position

Yes

And the blazers are a mens/boys cut in most cases...not all obviously

So my boys grew through their blazers...dd didnt, because we had to buy a Huge one for her

And the shirts didnt have room for breasts...again just had to go up a number of ages size wise which for a while were too big everywhere else. Thats a different issue I suppose

Sixth form boys, a male employee mentioned upthread, a society that "isn't there yet" all complaining that women have more clothing choices. Let's make you feel better by taking something away from females again.

How ugly.

So that makes it OK to take the choice away from girls?

Apparently so - and enthusiastically applauded by certain posters.

I had to check i was on feminism chat, there are two skirt threads running and i got confused

And what I would be interested in is, if trousers are so bad for so many women and girls, why is it that so many women and girls wear jeans and leggings so much of the time?

An interesting question. And i'm not entirely sure it is do with practicality or comfort. I've heard women saying that they"don't look good in skirts"....or that they"don't have the legs" for skirt wearing, or similar. This would suggest that most women are concerned about aesthetics, as well as comfort.

The thing is, in my eyes, wearing trousers when you are not slim and/ slim hipped; are big of bottom etc - just doesn't look very good at all. Trousers show off your shape and all of the lumps and bumps more than skirts or dresses.

But as you say most women now wear trousers.......and rarely ever skirts or dresses. I was in M&S yesterday, trying to find skirts that I liked. I've been looking for skirts for ages, but just cannot find ones that are the right length, shape etc They are either too short, too smart ( office style skirts), or too long and flowing......People seem to think skirts are for specific types of occasion only these days.

Even in M&S ( not my first choice) skirts are few and far between - amidst a sea of trousers.

Someone earlier mentioned the sorts of shoes that "are expected" with skirts. This only applies if you think about skirts in conventional terms - such as on the special occasion example above.I never wear heels. I wear boots, or in the summer fit-flops/slides. Skirts, with tights and boots can be very practical and very comfortable. And in the summer, skirts can be a lot cooler than shorts or trousers.

Bertrand I think the ties were there so that the shirts and blouses were buttoned right up to the top button. They used to have an issue with that previously.
CassianAndor boys and men don't want to wear skirts, if they did they would have become masculinised by now. Kilts are socially acceptable as male clothing in Scotland, how often do you see men there wearing kilts in every day life?

And a shirt and tie being unisex is the best example of default to male I’ve seen in a long time.

And FWIW you're either feminist or you're not - there is NO good or bad feminist. No feminist is better or worse than another. We want equality with men. Simple as that

Equality need not mean sameness, though. I long for the day when the female is valued as much as the male, and when traditional female roles are not looked down upon.

Equality of opportunity; each according to their own innate value, worth and talent.

CassianAndor
But boys are not lining up wanting to wear skirts. Why? Is it because they are feminine and feminine is bad? Or is it because they are less practical that trousers?

Oh that's a difficult question- I wonder what the answer is. Except actually it isn't. Boys don't wear skirts because they are feminine. We all know that no matter how much you (general you) try to push the impractical angle.