Girls wearing skirts not allowed into school - could only be Brighton

[Kit19]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/17886600.lewes-priory-gender-neutral-uniform-protest/

Apparently “gender neutral” means trousers aka the male default. This is utterly insane. I mean I wouldn’t have minded the choice of trousers or skirts for either sex but only trousers?

You might think skirts are an "impractical item of clothing" Decomposing but not everyone does, as other pp have said.

You don't speak for me.

I much prefer to wear skirts and always have. Perhaps the boys would like it too. Or not. Who cares. But they would have the choice.

Why am I being reminded of that thread that LangCleg posted earlier - "on the nature of creepiness" ?

Not aimed at your last comment Erishkigal

But skirts are the most impractical item of clothing

They need not be at all - in in some circumstances are more practical and comfortable than trousers. It is clear they are not for you, though.

I much prefer to wear skirts and always have. Perhaps the boys would like it too. Or not. Who cares. But they would have the choice.

I'd like to see this in practice, as a sociological experiment. I wonder how many would choose a skirt or trousers, both male and female, given the choice?

2B actually, what would really solve it is getting rid of uniform altogether. Like swathes of Europe and America manage to, but apparently British schools and schoolchildren are super-special and can’t manage to do this one simple thing

One of the problems with doing away with uniform is that poorer children, or children whose parents won't buy them the latest fashions can feel shamed. And having to spend time every morning thinking about what to wear is a waste of time.

Not aimed at your last comment Erishkigal

Relieved

I'd like to see this in practice, as a sociological experiment. I wonder how many would choose a skirt or trousers, both male and female, given the choice?

Go for it, if you find it interesting. As long as it's not given as a reason to restrict the personal choices of other people.

A man wearing a skirt is what, a better person in your view?

A man wearing a skirt is no better than a woman wearing a skirt...it is a non point as far as this discussion goes. What it would imply, though, is a shift in cultural expectations around dress, and what is considered 'appropriate' clothing for each sex.

Men's clothing choices are still so much more constrained in our culture, and as you point out that doesn't seem fair. Lots of men in other countries and cultures wear skirts/dress like costumes, and skirts can actually feel very free & 'natural' for the wearer - contrary to what some feel on here.

There are arguments for and against school uniform.

However, if there is to be a uniform, comfortable trousers seem an easy solution.

I really struggle to believe that trousers are hard to wear for girls, given how many choose to wear them. There is no physical impediment for girls wearing trousers, this is a real straw man argument.

Uniform should also be phased in to prevent parents wasting money, also common sense, and rare exceptions can be made for those with real specific needs (eg trainers for those with injuries).

In America they have guidelines for school uniform so the age old argument about uniform stopping a class division is probably pointless a simple set of school rules dictating no brands and no logos should surfise and a large dress code violation tshirt to wear should they get it wrong even better sod putting children in isolation they need to be educated

Living in Scotland and being surrounded by men and boys who wear a kilt as a matter of course (traditionally without underwear), this whole argument seems utterly bizarre.

Private schools in Edinburgh and elsewhere have kilts as part of the school uniform (public schools generally don't as this is a more expensive option than trousers).

My boys just got fitted for a kilt yesterday and they wear it with pride. None of us have ever considered the garment as impractical. And they don't flash anyone either, despite the lack of underwear (it's all in the design).

And skirts in general are not either - some versions are indeed impractical as are some versions of trousers. That's not a reason to ban the garment altogether. It's 2019 for goodness sake - offer all choices up to all pupils, establish rules as to skirt/trouser/shorts length and type and then enforce the rules around that. And then there's no need to involve the police in penalising girls for wearing skirts.

Whatever anyone's personal preference is in this regard, skirts continue to be a popular choice among girls. I don't see anything remotely progressive in banning them.

What Charlie said. Who could possibly object to such a reasonable proposal?

'Because you can't say you don't see anything when you've not actually seen men wearing skirts can you?'

Why are you ignoring the fact that skirt for garments are common in other countries and cultures, for men?

I mean go to parts of Scotland and you'll see men wearing kilts as an everyday garment. They are way more practical than trousers for walking, same principle as lederhosen. No having to tuck them in, no damp at the bottom etc. On a muddy walk, wellies, leggings and skirt is v practical, lots of freedom of movement and no creeping damp.

The comments seem narrow minded tbh.

Charlie,

But t shirts are worn by girls and boys totally happily. It is not ‘banning’ them to not make them a part of school uniform. The clue is in the word ‘uniform’.

If you want to go fully non gendered uniform, trousers are the practical and logical choice. It is no more ‘banning’ skirts than banning anything which is not a part of the uniform.

Many here are arguing against uniform in general. There are arguments on both sides of this but, to be honest, especially in rough schools, a uniform makes sense for a number of reasons.

Go for it, if you find it interesting

How can I go for it? I am in no position to introduce a free choice into a school or workplace.

&I really struggle to believe that trousers are hard to wear for girls, given how many choose to wear them. There is no physical impediment for girls wearing trousers, this is a real straw man argument*

No it isn't!

It is clear that you don't like skirts and enjoy wearing trousers. However, skirts are an option that have always been available to girls and women in our culture, and many enjoy and like to wear them; and some, such as myself - feel far less comfortable in trousers.

Removing choices from people that they have always enjoyed, and for no good reason is not the way to go, surely?

It's really interesting that an inwardly held idea of how things are (stereotypes) outweigh the evidence of own eyes for some. It happens all the time and seems particularly strong with sex stereotypes.

To say to a British website oh well I mean how many of you have even seen a man in a skirt! Assuming that obviously, men wearing skirts is vanishingly rare. When in fact they are national wear and worn in real life by the men in one whole country in the uk is bizarre.

You've never caught the Scots guards parading for the Queen in their kilts? I mean it's totally ingrained in a massive part of the Culture of a whole part of the uk.

And the reason for insisting that men never ever wear skirts except for in backwards countries (!) is to justify saying they should be banned for school girls and hopefully stop being worn by women full stop as they're so so awful....

Has anyone suggested a choice of trousers, skirts or shorts for both sexes?

Decomposing I was referring to your idea that boys should have two options (trousers and shorts) because they get too hot and uncomfortable in the summer, but that girls should not be permitted to wear shorts when hot and uncomfortable in summer because this would be unfair.

You're basically saying that everyone should have the option of a cool-and-comfortable short-legged summer uniform/work outfit, except women and girls who feel incredibly vulnerable in skirts. How is this fair to those who feel particularly vulnerable as a result of previous assault? How are you ensuring women like me are able to participate equally in society?

Was it fair and equal that the boys at school got to be cool and comfortable in their shorts while I spent most of primary school having my ability to absorb the education on offer hampered by being in a state of perpetually-heightened alert?

offer all choices up to all pupils, establish rules as to skirt/trouser/shorts length and type and then enforce the rules around that.

This is the crux though. Schools are ham strung by not being able to enforce rules around skirt length. I've seen the argument had on here so many times. What does a school do if students refuse to wear longer skirts - put them in isolation, exclude them? Then you get news stories like the ops.

So many children and parents don't follow the rules and schools end up powerless to act.

Assuming that obviously, men wearing skirts is vanishingly rare. When in fact they are national wear and worn in real life by the men in one whole country in the uk is bizarre.

Kilts aren't skirts though are they? They are long, heavy material not the typical short polyester school skirt.

(Wonder what Scotsmen would think about being told they are wearing a skirt?)

I would like to point out that in the news clip the girls had v short skirts and the boys had equivalently revealing ultra skin tight trousers.

The boys trousers cause no objection because boys are not seen primarily as sex objects.

If and when the girls wear trousers as tight as the boys one, you can bet that they will be 'too tight' and they will be told off debt home etc.

This is all about girls bodies and how they are viewed in our culture.

I mean short skirts so what, they're just legs. Anyone looking at a13yo girl in a short skirt and thinking, whatever they are thinking, needs to consider why they feel that way about a child's legs. Do they feel the same about a boy in 70s style shorts. I mean there may be protestations of yes but it's no isn't it. Boys with their legs showing are not seen in a sexual light.

You're basically saying that everyone should have the option of a cool-and-comfortable short-legged summer uniform/work outfit, except women and girls who feel incredibly vulnerable in skirts. How is this fair to those who feel particularly vulnerable as a result of previous assault? How are you ensuring women like me are able to participate equally in society?

But shorts aren't an option now, for anyone. And no one even suggested shorts before I did so what are girls doing currently who don't want to wear skirts but find trousers too hot? I guess girls will have to do what boys will have to do - campaign to be allowed to wear shorts because right now, boys have to put up with only wearing trousers and sweating in the 30 odd degree heat we've had.

This is the crux though. Schools are ham strung by not being able to enforce rules around skirt length. I've seen the argument had on here so many times. What does a school do if students refuse to wear longer skirts - put them in isolation, exclude them? Then you get news stories like the ops

Some schools have very strict uniform rules, and everyone has to buy the approved uniform ( usually independent or church schools). There are no choices available when it comes to design and style.

Many schools however, may just stipulate a 'grey skirt/grey trousers' and you can buy whatever you like from your local branch of Asda, or wherever.

That's a difficult one - and I guess that each school has to decide how to approach the situation. If a child/parent refuses to abide by the rules, then they can either have choices removed from them altogether - or failing that, exclusion.