New EHRC guidance for schools

[emzvalentine]

The EHRC has produced new guidance for transitioning pupils in Scottish schools, with English guidance to follow shortly.

Despite the recent calls for statutory codes for implementing the exceptions in the Equality Act, the EHRC has, once again, repeated a policy that fails to take into account the needs of girls, and defers to the trans organisations.

Details and link to the guidance document are on this thread:
twitter.com/VicM2019/status/1166808190983577608

How is bringing this to wider attention undermining work already done?

If this has been leaked then I assume it is to enable women's groups to organise and make enough public noise that this is not forced through on the quiet.

Do I trust the powers that be to do this in an above board, equality based way? Based on my experience over the past few years? No. Absolutely not. I trust them to do whatever the trans lobby tell them to and be as underhand and anti women as they think they can get away with.

Reappearing if you mean was I the one who leaked it and did I have a secret army of Mumsnetters lined up to lay siege to EHRC with balaclavas, smoke bombs and jeering? No It wasn’t me and that is TRAs style not ours...

Why are we not allowed to know which groups have been consulted? This smacks of backroom deals yet again, and you can bet women and girls won't be coming out on top.

Reappearing
If this is an example of the work already done then it needs undermining before it becomes guidance.

There seems to be a lot of people saying butt out. Is that so we can be presented with a fait accompli?

Do you think the women working on this, who have been asked to give feedback, aren't working on challenging it? It's been suggested that their efforts to challenge have been undermined by this leak. Does that still make the leak worth it?

So you have a plan then? What is it?

I don't have a plan, but if i did it would be 'widely consult on any changes to EHRC guidance for schools and don't try and slip bad policy under the radar'

Why, would there be a problem with this plan?

Reappear when you say ‘women’ what definition do you use?

What a fucking weird thread.

'Don't tell em PIKE.'

No wonder someone leaked it.

If WomenForScotland weren't involved then exactly who and which women have been 'consulted'? Because whoever it is they aren't getting very far are they?

Or is the hope that carefully 'selected' women who can be relied on not to say difficult things will be the only ones allowed into this process?

Men, deciding amongst men, who women are and what women may have. FUCK THAT. The 12th Century wants its consultation back.

I would be shocked if any group that cares about the rights of women and girls would even allow this draft to be typed up. If this is the draft they have been given to comment on, then clearly the EHRC have not listened to women AT ALL.

Reappearing
You seem very keen for us to shut up. Why is that?

I don't see why the ECHR can't have some feedback if this is what they are planning. How will it undermine the women supposedly working on our behalf? Will they put their fingers in their ears and say 'we can't hear your concerns'? Like they already appear to be doing. The institutional capture by TRAs has gone on too long and indeed it is proceeding apace. We will demand answers to our concerns and insist on recognising provisions in the EA. Keeping silent has got us nowhere.

Where have I told anyone to shut up? I've done the opposite - I've asked what the plan is? Now that the document has been leaked, plenty can see it, the EHRC have been tagged into the twitter thread, lots of outrage at what's in there - what now? Surely whoever leaked this has an idea what they can do with it?

FPFW & TransgenderTrend have been asking to be consulted on this for months. Does this leak make it more or less likely that they'll get an opportunity to have input into this?

Do you think the women working on this, who have been asked to give feedback, aren't working on challenging it? It's been suggested that their efforts to challenge have been undermined by this leak. Does that still make the leak worth it?

This is just bizarre - there may or may not be some womens' groups working on this, who may or may not be affected by this being leaked - no-one can give any specifics, but just in case there are some groups working on it who might be affected, the leak should be deleted.

What if there aren't any womens groups working on it? What if there are, but they aren't going to be affected as who could know who the leak came from?

What if the only way womens groups (as mentioned above) who were unaware and are working on it now there's a leak?

Funny that the leak is bad because mystery people may be working on it, and that getting rid of the leak would be exactly what the TRAs want isn't it?

I think sunlight is a good disinfectant. I don't see why, unless something is being snuck through (which it seems to be) it shouldn't be out in the open.

Reappearing, so the leak is worth it if women are making noise because of it and will demand a seat at the table?

I'm not quite sure why you are being so hostile? Revolution has never happened by quietly accepting the status quo and hoping they give us the scraps of power - fuck them, we'll demand the power and go kicking and screaming.

Reappear please answer my question: what is your definition of ‘women’?

Adult human female. Happy?

However these days you also need to ask for a shared meaning on 'female' (and probably adult and human too by now, I haven't checked Twitter for twenty minutes)

I'm really not sure regulatory capture and professional behaviour is so far gone that the EHRC is going to get sniffy at the leak and say that no women can now be consulted on who women are/single sex spaces and it must all be decided for them by men because all women are untrustworthy. On the plus side, if they do, at least we all know where we stand and we can start organising the press releases and the marches now.

Can we put the silliness to one side and talk about how, after it was openly discussed at the Scots parliament that to exclude females from female spaces in order to accommodate males was unacceptable, that this is the 'new' draft? Who's told the women MPs who spoke out at that meeting that this is going on? This needs challenging in the Scots parliament again, because it's open evidence of regulatory/policy capture and of prioritising males and male interests over equality of female interests. And it's promoting a hierarchy of protected characteristics which is not supported in law.

Given the TRA line, I am tempted to ask your definition of ‘female’ too.

Do you really not understand why women do not trust these unknown groups to protect our interests? Why we are not prepared to delete a link to a what is now publicly available document from one of the few forums where it can be discussed?

Why do you expect us to have formulated extensive plans since 9:30 last night? What plans do YOU have to support the rights of women and girls??

Just found a tweet from Women and Girls Scotland saying that this leak threatens the process being undertaken and the potential for the groups involved to impact this or any future EHRC guidance...

Which unless they really are this anti women and women are now so openly excluded from law that it must be a very private, select group and only in extreme private might those women be able to get a bit of women and girl focused impact in if they're lucky and now they won't be trusted or allowed in again (which should be a public scandal) - suggests that it's the TRA political lobby that is to be feared as a result of this leak, and the EHRC have no faith in being able to remain independent/control their influence.

And that's political failure in the extreme, an even greater political scandal and equally needs dragging into the light. So which is it?

Unbelievable. Women's groups need to gain the trust of EHRC? Really?
It's the other way round surely.
EHRC is the UK's national human rights institution, and NHRIs are supposed to be transparent and accountable. If women are excluded from consultation work unless they agree to a shady backroom process, then the EHRC is not fit for purpose as a NHRI. I don't see how it's going to retain its A status if it carries on like this.

Why would specifically women's groups be excluded as a result of this leak? We don't know who the leaker is, it could be a man from any number of organisations.

Sounds dodgy.

Also, since women's groups weren't being consulted anyway how can the leak possibly make things worse?

Sounds a bit like they've been trying to silence women by dangling the merest possibility of being treated as equal human beings over their heads (keep quiet and don't make a fuss and maybe we'll let you see this (after everyone else)). Fuck that shit.

What isn't clear is whether women's groups were consulted about this awful document or merely sent a copy before publication. Have they been invited to feed back their views / amendments or is it merely a begrudging "here's a copy as you made a fuss before but we have no interest in listening your views".

I've been in receipt of a number of government policy documents in advance of publication - all embargoed but none with any invitation for feedback. That all happens at the consultation stage. (Idly wonders what has happened to the feedback re the biased GRA consultation?)

Maybe a couple of FOIs would elicit which groups were consulted with / met with / invited to feed back - and which groups received no such invitations? (Hint - it will be those groups having rights removed from them who will not have been consulted with).

1. According to their reactions, it seems clear that neither the big Uk-wide nor the biggest Scottish group have been asked to comment on the draft, let alone consulted with in producing these guidelines.

1. HannaSkye, ReappearingWomen and KinseyMilhone123 have made their one and only appearance on Mumsnet on this thread to support MereMinion in condemning the leak. This suggests strongly that the latter's group is one, if not the only, grassroots women's rights organisation who were asked to give feedback on the pretty much finished looking draft guidelines.

1. This unequivocal condemnation of the leak also makes clear that it is extremely unlikely that this group is responsible for the leak as they clearly believe it damages both their work and their credibility. The same will hold true for any independent women's rights campaigners who may have been put in the privileged position of commenting on this draft. It's far more likely to have been leaked by a member of an unconnected organisation. My money would be on someone connected to schools.

1. Even if this group has done stellar work on the rights of women and girls, not one group should ever be the only group to be consulted on such important guidelines, regardless of what side they are on. Disability groups, religious and ethnic minority groups, as well as other grassroots women's rights groups can and should add to the creation process.

1. These guidelines as well as the ones they replace represent a massive policy change. That is something which should only ever happen via a thoroughly transparent process that is open to the public.

1. Whether there is anything untoward or not, the secrecy with which the EHRC has first drafted these new guidelines (which need binned and completely rewritten from the ground up) and then only asked an extremely limited number of women's rights campaigners to comment, smacks of backroom deals. That just sows suspicion for no good reason. That's how we got in this mess in the first place, by things getting done behind closed doors.

1. The suggestion that this was leaked to damage the work of this one group is ridiculous. It's far more likely that this was leaked by someone who thinks this whole process should be open and transparent and not limited to a few carefully selected groups.

Just found a tweet from Women and Girls Scotland saying that this leak threatens the process being undertaken and the potential for the groups involved to impact this or any future EHRC guidance

I somehow doubt there is any threat to the likes of Stonewall or STA being involved in future guidance despite the fact we don’t know where the leak came from...