Drag practice: more authentic that actually being a woman?

[Patnotpending]

I was listening to Saturday REview on Radio 4 yesterday and there was a discussion about the latest Almodovar film. Dorian Lynsky, music writer for the Guardian, says that something in the film relates to:

'drag practice, in which to channel femininity is more authentic than being a woman.'

My jaw dropped – and so did that of the presenter, Tom Sutcliffe, who instantly picked him up on it. It was laughed off, but only after Lynsky repeated that this was drag practice. It's here, at around 05.58 minutes in:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0007wkd

Can this really be true – that men in drag think they are being more authentic feminine than women? It's just so fucked-up, so obviously based on sex stereotypes. What are all these idiots on?

The quietly getting on with supporting the elderly, nursing the sick, holding the community together

Well, yes! Because all of these are nurturing, supportive roles...

Because all of these are nurturing, supportive roles...

These are aspects of femininity that I don't reject though, so it is wrong to my mind to suggest that rejecting the passing whims of fashion when they don't coincide with my personal tastes amounts to 'rejecting femininity'.

I do think these roles are undervalued in our society. I also think they are the most important and satisfying roles. These are the roles that immediately come to my mind when the word 'femininity' is used. Not ludicrous, over the top clothing and make up, but this very quiet, feminine strength without which society falls apart.

I don't reject femininity at all - although some women might, and have every right to.

I reject women being told they must perform femininity, in the form of heels, makeup, taking on the caring roles etc, just because they're women.

I firmly reject men performing an exaggerated parody of femininity and then calling themselves more "authentic" or feminine than women - because they're just not. Femininity is not the grotesque parody showcased by drag queens.

Pota2

They are very unflattering on anyone larger than a size 10

Well aren’t you a bundle of delight

I was responding to the ridiculous post by someone who has never met a woman who doesn't look better in trousers.

I look terrible in trousers. Trousers do not suit an hourglass shape. Had that nonsense not been posted I would have kept my opinion to myself.

Who has the rule book on what is and what isn't feminine? I've not seen it so I can't be sure that I'm feminine. I thought my breasts, vagina and XX chromosome make up was all I needed, but it seems not.

Also how many boxes do you need to tick. If I tick the long hair box can I get away with not wearing heels, or will that mean I'm still not a proper female.

Personally I think unless a woman is very slim most women look terrible in trousers. They are very unflattering on anyone larger than a size 10.

Some of us aren't obsessed about the way we look and go for comfort and practicality. I'd look pretty daft riding my motorbike in a skirt.

Marguerita okay but it’s not very nice to basically slate anyone who is bigger than a size 10 just to prove some dumb point. In your opinion trousers don’t suit hourglass figures but not everyone agrees with that, thankfully. People can of course wear what they like. But it’s a fact that women’s clothes throughout history have tended to be impractical and uncomfortable. Skirts meant that cycling, riding, working outdoors etc was made more difficult than it needed to be. Corsets caused deformity and huge amounts of pain and even organ problems. Crinolines made it hard to get around. I won’t even get into the massive damage that wearing high heels can do to the body. It’s interesting that all of these potential health issues are all associated with women’s clothes and not men’s. As I said, people can wear what they want, but my feet are pretty fucked now, I have bunions and get pain easily and I am pretty sure it comes from wearing high heels in my late teens and early 20s. And I wore them pretty much because I was told by the media and by my peers that it was more attractive than flat shoes. Then the pain got too bad and I also stopped caring so much.

Another word with nuance and varied meanings depending on context

Current standards of femininity/ performing feminity, are around current modes of behaviour and dress that women and girls are expected to adhere to, to some extent, or some of the time.

Being feminine, is again around looks and behaviour, but not so, showy for want of a better word. Lots of women are feminine in this way without trying, just by dint of their looks or personality. These standards change more slowly but they do, eg smoking in public used to be unfeminine, now (while lots of people don't like smoking) it's not a thing that specifically a woman shouldn't do if she is to woman right. Or, doing certain jobs, police officer for eg.

Of course a woman who doesn't conform to these more subtle standards is still a woman.

So eg I conform (or did when younger!) to male approved looks. Small build, blonde hair, boobs. With no makeup and in non feminine clothes, I look feminine.

I only perform femininity for work (makeup and clothes to an extent) and ill be honest I quite enjoy it, I do feel like I'm putting on a costume though.

The fact that so many men see the costume as all there is to women is really depressing tbh.

Some of us aren't obsessed about the way we look
And there's my point, thank you. That sentiment could have been expressed in a neutral way, e.g. 'some of us don't care how we look'. There was no need for the derogatory wording.

Meant to add

That it's like one layer of feminity is based on women's social role (gentle, quiet, kind, unvomplaining) and how we naturally look (how the ones considered to be attractive naturally look).

And then the performance exaggerates this, mainly around the appearance. False lashes, tight clothes, high heels, makeup, highly styled dyed hair, hair removal etc.

Both are social constructs or ideals maybe is a better word,

The second is what most people recognise as performing femininity even if they don't call it that.

The second is what society expects our teenage girls to do, and then takes the piss out of them when they do, up to and including drag, but also takes the piss out of them if they don't.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

And men like all this. They drive it. They say oh no I prefer a woman who looks natural but that's not what they look for in their porn, is it. Its not who they picked as their pin ups in years gone by.

The reason is that adhering to these time consuming and expensive procedures / routines demonstrates capitulation. I will do all this, to be what you, men, want to look at. In a lot of the clothes there is an element of the submissive as well. Hobbling shoes, clothes that bind, restrict movement.

This then feeds back on itself with men identifying the trappings of femininity as submissive, and as the trappings are all a woman is, submissive =woman. So you get all the kinky stuff for men dressing as women and then treated as a sexual submissive.

I mean the more you dig into it the more fucked it is. It's all from the minds of men though. Kind of, actually, none of this has anything actually to do with us, with real women and girls. It's all male sexual fantasy.

Margueritaokay but it’s not very nice to basically slate anyone who is bigger than a size 10 just to prove some dumb point

Why are you lecturing me rather than the poster who made the sweeping and nonsensical post about all women looking better in trousers? - which was followed up btw by the sexist comment about men in skirts ( ie kilts being fine)

Some of us aren't obsessed about the way we look and go for comfort and practicality. I'd look pretty daft riding my motorbike in a skirt

Are you referring to the poster who thinks all women look better in trousers? That certainly seems a rather obsessional and narrow attitude.

And there's my point, thank you. That sentiment could have been expressed in a neutral way, e.g. 'some of us don't care how we look'. There was no need for the derogatory wording.

But that would change the meaning. 'Some of us don't care how we look' doesn't mean the same as 'some of us are not obsessed about how we look'. You can care about your appearance without worrying that a whole category of clothing is 'unflattering' so you shouldn't go near it even if it's the most appropriate/practical type of clothing for whatever you're doing.

If I'm going to a formal event I care whether I am wearing clothing which is appropriate for the event and looks smart, so I do care about how I look. I don't obsess about whether my trousers make my bum look a bit big (or whatever Marguerita was getting at with her 'If you're not skinny you shouldn't wear trousers' comment). She was the one making derogatory comments, not me.

Are you referring to the poster who thinks all women look better in trousers? That certainly seems a rather obsessional and narrow attitude.

No. I was replying to you. Because you seemed to be saying that the only consideration in choosing what clothes to wear was how they looked on you. A fat-arsed (size 12) woman like me might choose to wear trousers just because they're practical, even if I looked more decorative in a skirt.

I reject women being told they must perform femininity, in the form of heels, makeup, taking on the caring roles etc, just because they're women

Yup

I look great in jeans and trousers

Mainly because i am very thick waisted

Pretty Dresses look dreadful cos im big of boob and thick of waist

Lots of my friends look stunning in dresses and trousers...whatever size they are

But then im not fucking likely to come on here and say

All women this or all women that

As that would be daft

At dh dinner dance they told women to wear red or White evening dresses

So i wore black leggings and a black sleeveless top with a black leather jacket

I am feminine...but I’m not being told what to wear to prove it

And in the dress shop i worked in for a long time the rule was you should preferably be in a dress but could wear jeans if you wore high heels...didnt do that either

I’ve always been somewhat GNC and as an adolescent I thought this meant that I was hideous and no one would ever love me because I was given the impression by media and society more widely that men were attracted to the trappings of femininity.

Eventually, though, I realized the following - and it’s had a huge impact on my philosophy of life and feelings about gender. Straight men are attracted to female bodies. Not to femininity.

Now, why is culture so obsessed with femininity, given none of it is natural? Well Some straight men more than others care about what other people think about their partners. For example a lot of guys who are into larger female bodies keep their girlfriends secret because they are ashamed. I have found that Being Relatively GNC is a great way to filter out people who want to use you as a status symbol. Smaller but higher quality dating pool. There are of course other ways to apply a filter but I imagine more discernment is needed.

OldCrone fair enough. I was thinking of when it's used on here as part of normal discourse - not in the heat of the moment. So bad example.

I agree that drag is offensive. Here is another example of something I find offensive: Twenty Transwomen Who Make Your Girlfriend Look Like A Dude. What do y'all think? scribol.com/pop-culture/celebrities/beautiful-transgender-women/

As for me, I don't think men make women look like dudes. Full stop.

Twenty Transwomen Who Make Your Girlfriend Look Like A Dude

It's all a bit desperately competitive isn't it? "TW are hotter-looking than your girlfriend so why don't you want to date us - waaah?" is what I'm taking away from that.

Twenty Transwomen Who Make Your Girlfriend Look Like A Dude. What do y'all think?

Wow, with hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of surgery, more make up than Kim K, strategic posing and a bucket load of photo shop - a small percentage of men can almost pass as women.