Drag practice: more authentic that actually being a woman?

[Patnotpending]

I was listening to Saturday REview on Radio 4 yesterday and there was a discussion about the latest Almodovar film. Dorian Lynsky, music writer for the Guardian, says that something in the film relates to:

'drag practice, in which to channel femininity is more authentic than being a woman.'

My jaw dropped – and so did that of the presenter, Tom Sutcliffe, who instantly picked him up on it. It was laughed off, but only after Lynsky repeated that this was drag practice. It's here, at around 05.58 minutes in:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0007wkd

Can this really be true – that men in drag think they are being more authentic feminine than women? It's just so fucked-up, so obviously based on sex stereotypes. What are all these idiots on?

You seem to be redefining femininity. Many posters on here go to great lengths to explain that they are female but do not "perform femininity" and and are not feminine.

Femininity:
qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of women

Nothing about the definition of femininity mentions: tights/heels/nails/make up.

I think you are making shit up now. Perhaps go try reading a book or sotin?

I do worry that some men have not worked out that being a woman is actually a real thing. In their minds we are just defective men who do dress up and are a happy that way.

I do worry that some men have not worked out that being a woman is actually a real thing

I think you're right. To the self centred, narcissistic mind nobody else really has any existence that is valid or real. All exists to serve or bolster the ego.

How deeply offensive it is for some men to suggest that simply 'identifying' as a woman makes you one. That so many men, including ( & conversely, usually......) so many so called progressive, left-liberal, and gay men think that being a woman is just a matter of inner feeling just shows the dire mess that we have got ourselves into.

I suppose some of that confusion comes from the years of certain strands of feminism saying that there are no real differences between men & women - they are all in the head. Equality meaning sameness etc

Oh come off it - are you seriously saying you've never seen the large amount of posts on here from posters who never wear dresses/ skirts/ make- up/ nail varnish/ tights / heels etc. etc ? It's a badge of honour trotted out on every thread discussing clothes and appearance
Yes I've seen this too. I'm not talking about choosing not to dress in a feminine way, I'm talking about posters who seem to have a visceral dislike of make up, dresses etc and who sometimes cannot keep their disdain in check. Not every poster, and I've no idea who they are as I rarely remember usernames, but there are certainly some and I'm surprised that more people haven't noticed.

Anyway going back to the thread - I'm not a fan of drag.

I suppose in some ways the transgender ideology, and movement, is a contemporary way of managing and dealing with the complex experience that comes with being human.

Set against the backdrop of a U.S originated Disney'fied; commodified; individualistic 'choice' culture....it suggests freedom through buying into or adopting various identities or roles......which are posited as offering more opportunity to express the self fully.

The number of famous U.S personalities who now seem to have a trans sibling, child or other relation is highly conspicuous. It has become the new cool trend.

And the growing & dominant influence of pornography, fetish and fantasy role play ( cos-play etc) has created the perfect storm for this very modern phenomena. You can be whoever you want to be.......dreams can come true......live the life you deserve etc

And now we see science trying to transcend biology and nature; to control and master it...which is why the planet is in the deathly state it now is. We need to be reconnecting with nature, not going in the opposite direction.....none of it bodes well.

Yes I've seen this too. I'm not talking about choosing not to dress in a feminine way, I'm talking about posters who seem to have a visceral dislike of make up, dresses etc and who sometimes cannot keep their disdain in check. Not every poster, and I've no idea who they are as I rarely remember usernames, but there are certainly some and I'm surprised that more people haven't noticed.

So what if they do? That has got nothing to do with 'femininity'.

So what if they do?
So you agree it happens? That was the only point I was making.

Not every poster, and I've no idea who they are as I rarely remember usernames, but there are certainly some and I'm surprised that more people haven't noticed

Yes people have picked up on this...and there have been discussions; often quite heated

Personally i think the sort of rejection of the 'feminine' is a reaction to individual experiences of pain, abuse, oppression - on account of being female; in a female body. Plus, of course, many women simply don't feel comfortable in flounces and frills; or feel uncomfortable in high heels ( I've not worn heels since I was 15); feel false or fake in make-up......

I do think that womanhood/motherhood and the other traditional functions and roles of womanhood have become disparaged, even by women themselves, as they have sought to liberate themselves as human beings from the bondage and lack of value afforded to the 'feminine'. For many women they have had no choice but to act and compete in a masculine world, along masculine terms of reference and value.

I do think that womanhood/motherhood and the other traditional functions and roles of womanhood ...

And these would be, what?

So you agree it happens? That was the only point I was making.

Pointless point though. Yes some people will have different opinions on clothes. It's got nothing to do with 'femininity'.

I had a very strange experience a couple of weeks ago - I happened to be passing Olympia (the exhibition centre in London) and there was a drag convention on.

Outside there were a few males dressed up and looking grotesque (in my view - I too view drag as a parody, as offensive 'womanface' at best, although tbh I think it's gone way beyond that now).

Anyone suggesting that, for example, the man I saw stalking along in towering platform boots, with his entire shaved head and face painted black, with eyes and lips rouged like the late Leigh Bowery (or more like Papa Lazarou, actually) was expressing more authentic femininity than a woman can kindly FOTTFSOF.

Oh, and the queue of people waiting to get in - it was a very big queue, too - was almost exclusively teenage/early 20s girls and young women with very small children. What's all that about? Why do people buy into (literally, in this case) this male fetish?

And these would be, what?

Looking after home, family, children....and being happy to......that sort of thing.....But you know that, really

Oh, and the queue of people waiting to get in - it was a very big queue, too - was almost exclusively teenage/early 20s girls and young women with very small children. What's all that about? Why do people buy into (literally, in this case) this male fetish?

Some of what people now expose their children to is grotesque. Some of the halloween costumes you now see ( imported from U.S culture) are horrible and gruesome...all about sheer physical horror; and many of the costumes of street performers that you see in our city centres are gross too. To my mind scary, and de-sensitised.

Personally i think the sort of rejection of the 'feminine' is a reaction to individual experiences of pain, abuse, oppression - on account of being female; in a female body

Nah, I just find skirts and dresses uncomfortable and impractical, and if I'm honest have never met a woman who doesn't look better in trousers.

Men in kilts by contrast............

I digress. My opinion is, of course, entirely subjective and there are as many opinions as to what looks best on women as there are people on the planet, so it isn't like I go round harassing skirt wearing women in the street or anything.

Nor do skirts, dresses, make up conjure the word 'feminine' in my mind particularly. I'm a child of the 80s, I've always been a sucker for the 'dandy highwayman' man in flouncy shirts and make up. To me 'feminine' brings to mind quiet strength not flamboyant clothes.

Pointless point though. Yes some people will have different opinions on clothes.
Pointless or not, it was not about people having different opinions on clothes, as I'm sure you realise. It's about posters who ooze disdain for women who enjoy dresses and make up but who always deny it when challenged.

Drag isn’t feminine though. Glitter, killer heels, false lashes, gigantic hair, skimpy dresses etc are really not feminine, they’re just gross. Feminine things are supposed to be delicate and pretty like eyelet lace and hand painted silk in pastel.

Femininity:
qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of women

Nothing about the definition of femininity mentions: tights/heels/nails/make up

I think you are making shit up now. Perhaps go try reading a book or sotin?

What "qualities or characteristics are attributed to women"? There is biology obviously which is innate.

This forum has post after post of posters saying how much they reject femininity- what do you think they are rejecting? It certainly isn't biology.

Nah, I just find skirts and dresses uncomfortable and impractical, and if I'm honest have never met a woman who doesn't look better in trousers

Each to their own. Personally I think unless a woman is very slim most women look terrible in trousers. They are very unflattering on anyone larger than a size 10.

Nah, I just find skirts and dresses uncomfortable and impractical, and if I'm honest have never met a woman who doesn't look better in trousers

You've not me me, then. I love skirts, and think they are more flattering for me than trousers ( I, personally, do care about aesthetics). They have to be knee length though - not too long, and not too short.

I have short hair though, and don't wear heels. I love boots, or else fit-flops. I don't like shoes. I think we all try to find a look that we are comfortable with, that suits our personality.

Each to their own

Indeed, they're just clothes.

They are very unflattering on anyone larger than a size 10

Well aren’t you a bundle of delight

What "qualities or characteristics are attributed to women"? There is biology obviously which is innate

Hormones are important and highly influential, of course ( no matter how often we are told that hormones and biology don't matter)and there simply has to be some sort of genetic imprint too....when it comes to adaptive performance & function. Why should humans be any different to any other creature on earth?

Obviously as evolved creatures much of our instinctive performance is over-ridden or modified by social and/or other factors.

Ascribed womanly characteristics would be : empathy, & communicativeness/ verbal agility, amongst others. any characteristics associated with the process and facts of pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing ( whether or not an individual woman goes on to have children or not).

The most obvious quality attributed to women is caring, and not just in the child rearing sense Justhadathought mentions, but more widely.

The quietly getting on with supporting the elderly, nursing the sick, holding the community together.

Indeed, they're just clothes

Of course, but in modern societies clothes become personal expressions of the self. For some people it would even seem that their main creative outlet or expression is through their clothing. Especially so for many women. And this then extends to the body itself - through various forms of body modification.

I think it's important, as it's defining the word femininity - to display the characteristics associated with being female as defined by men.

By that reckoning, it's reasonable for femininity to be heels and little dresses. And for a trans man to look female, not feminine. Because if the descriptor specifically requires the approval of men, then it's accurate to say anybody wearing those clothes/adapting that persona is feminine.

Any woman can be dressed in masculine clothing, a woman can be described as having masculine qualities or features. Does that mean she is male? Or does that mean that she displays qualities associated with maleness as defined by men?