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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any stats on transwomen who are agp compared to homosexual

54 replies

Qcng · 25/08/2019 21:04

Hi,
Basically there's someone in my life who is gender critical to a point, (thinks it's ridiculous for males to compete against women in sport and is generally conservative when it comes to same sex spaces).

They basically refuse to or can't believe that a "man dressed in women's clothing" could possibly be attracted to women.
He is convinced that all transvestites/transwomen are "gay" - attracted to men.

I have tried to explain that some cross dressers or transwomen are attracted to women, which is a worry for women in same sex spaces like prisons/shelters etc, but he basically thinks I'm making it up! He can't believe it, so it leads to a sort of plateau in his thinking which a lot of men get to, which is
"Well it's only harmless feminine (weak) gay men so what's your problem?"

Anyway.

I've come across this sort of thinking from men rather a lot.

Can any of you help me with concrete statistics wrt basically

The percentage of males who identify as women who are attracted to women
Compared to
The percentage of males who identify as women who are attracted to men?

OP posts:
zebrasdontwearbras · 25/08/2019 21:42

Ray Blanchard is good on this - I'm not sure anyone knows the exact proportion though.

Transwomen fall into roughly 2 types:

  1. Effeminate gay males - attracted to other males.
  2. AGP males - who are sexually aroused at the thought of themselves as women (transvestites) - attracted to women.

But - surely your gc-ish friend must realise that a substantial proportion of transwomen are attracted to women?

Caitlyn Jenner for a start, has a girlfriend.

Show your friend stuff about the cotton ceiling - that was written by transwomen attracted to women, who want to persuade lesbians to "date" sleep with them.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/08/2019 22:21

They basically refuse to or can't believe that a "man dressed in women's clothing" could possibly be attracted to women.
*He is convinced that all transvestites/transwomen are "gay" - attracted to men.

I have tried to explain that some cross dressers or transwomen are attracted to women,*

I don't know about stats, but there are at least a couple of very well known heterosexual transvestites- you can probably glean enough from their wiki pages, although I think perry has written more about it. Perry is honest about it, and afaik does not impinge on women's spaces.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GraysonPerryy_
_
And then there's Izzard_ Hmm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddiee_Izzard

Or then there's McKinnon ...

FermatsTheorem · 25/08/2019 22:25

Sit him down and make him watch the infamous Riley Dennis video about "your genital preferences are transphobic."

ErrolTheDragon · 25/08/2019 22:38

This is one of Blanchard papers, unfortunately the full text isn't free access - but the abstract makes it cleat there are both homosexual and heterosexual male trans people.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01542107

titchy · 25/08/2019 22:41

Is he aware of the tW in jails for sexual assault?

ErrolTheDragon · 25/08/2019 22:44

I was jus about to mention Karen White... unfortunately far from a unique example.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 25/08/2019 22:45

Caitlin Jenner's partner is male. And young enough to be her granddaughter

DuMondeB · 25/08/2019 22:51

The Beaumont Society (the UK’s oldest trans organisation, founded in the mid 60s) described itself thus:

‘'for heterosexual transvestites and gender motivated transsexuals'.

(Source: www.beaumontsociety.org.uk/documents/Beaumont_History.pdf )

They have a organisation for wives:

‘Beaumont Partners is a volunteer organisation, run exclusively by women, for women. We aim to improve the emotional wellbeing of women who are experiencing issues as a result of discovering that their partners are transgender.’

( www.beaumontsociety.org.uk/partners/ )

Or send him the Mumsnet transwidow threads (now up to part three) to read first hand testimony from women who were married to AGPs.

Yeahnahyeah · 25/08/2019 22:56

70 year old Jenner and their 22 year old partner are planning on having buying a baby this year. 🤮

zebrasdontwearbras · 25/08/2019 23:42

Oh lord, I hadn't even realised CJ's partner was trans. I just read about "Caitlyn Jenner's girlfriend". My interest in CJ's personal life is very very limited.

Anyway, OP, that doesn't negate the point that there are numerous transwomen attracted to women. Otherwise the cotton ceiling wouldn't be a thing. And of course, CJ has sired 6 children with various wives.

aliasundercover · 25/08/2019 23:47

the infamous Riley Dennis video about "your genital preferences are transphobic."
Oh god, that's a new one to me. However, as it's clear that Riley Dennis is ridiculous I hope not many people took notice.

MargueritaBlue · 25/08/2019 23:54

Oh god, that's a new one to me. However, as it's clear that Riley Dennis is ridiculous I hope not many people took notice

Loads of people took notice- making response videos to Riley is a YouTube cottage industry. You have everyone from Magdalen Berns to Blaire White (saying pretty much the same thing) to red- blooded, working- class, truck- driving good old boys (saying pretty much the same thing)

MargueritaBlue · 25/08/2019 23:59

Off the top of my head I can't think of any trans women in the public light who are attracted to women. The trans women the general public might have heard of such as India Willoughby, Kelly Malone, Paris Lees and Blaire White are all attracted to men.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/08/2019 00:07

The CJ confusion demonstrates why it's unlikely there are many statistics available to answer the OPs question
^
The percentage of males who identify as women who are attracted to women
Compared to
The percentage of males who identify as women who are attracted to men?^

A TW is likely to describe a relationship with either a woman or a TW as 'lesbian'.

MargueritaBlue · 26/08/2019 00:10

And there's Janet Mock, who has been with her male partner and latterly husband for over a decade, although they have just announced they are getting divorced.

zebrasdontwearbras · 26/08/2019 00:14

Listing transwomen who are attracted to males does not mean transwomen who are attracted to females do not exist. We know they do.

spinninghag · 26/08/2019 00:14

Jane Fae is on the record as being "a lesbian now"
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/18/gender-dysmorphia-daughter-dad-woman

Kellie Maloney was married to a woman:
"Kellie, 61, said that in 2005 - when the former boxing promoter was known as Frank - she had tried to strangle the woman she loved and was only stopped when their children burst into the room screaming."
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3133217/I-remember-fear-face-Kellie-Maloney-reveals-inner-torment-living-secret-double-life-led-nearly-strangle-ex-wife-holiday.html

And then we have Alex Drummond, of course, from the Stonewall trans advisory group:

MargueritaBlue · 26/08/2019 00:22

zebrasdontwearbras

Listing transwomen who are attracted to males does not mean transwomen who are attracted to females do not exist. We know they do

I didn't say that.

I said I can't think of any famous trans women whom the general public (i.e people not obsessed by trans issues) might have heard of who say they are lesbian.

MargueritaBlue · 26/08/2019 00:25

However if you can think of any famous trans lesbians no doubt you'll post details.

Re Kelly Malone- Malone was indeed married to a woman but since transitioning is looking to date men. Presumably that makes Malone a closet homosexual who is now out.

spinninghag · 26/08/2019 00:25

Some thoughts from Anne Lawrence on your question, OP

www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia_&_MtF_typology.html

"Blanchard's realization of the conceptual link between transsexual subtypes based on sexual orientation and the phenomenon that he would later call autogynephilia derived from decades of earlier observations concerning transvestism or erotic cross-dressing, MtF transsexualism, and the relationship between them. By the early 1980s, many clinicians had recognized that there were at least two distinctly different types of MtF transsexualism, plausibly reflecting entirely different etiologies (for a review, see Lawrence, 2010a). No one MtF transsexual typology, however, was generally accepted. Although transvestism was generally regarded as a disorder of sexuality — a paraphilia — and MtF transsexualism as a disorder of gender identity, clinicians had observed many similarities and connections between the two conditions. Specifically:
-transvestism sometimes evolved into MtF transsexualism (Lukianowicz, 1959);
-the boundary separating transvestism and MtF transsexualism was not distinct (Benjamin, 1966);
-both transvestites and MtF transsexuals experienced types of cross-gender identities (Stoller, 1968);
-some MtF transsexuals were effeminate and androphilic, whereas others were primarily sexually attracted to women (gynephilic) and had --a history of transvestic fetishism (Money & Gaskin, 1970/1971);
the essential fantasy for transvestites, as well as for MtF transsexuals, was becoming a woman, not just dressing as one (Ovesey & Person, 1976);
-MtF transsexualism was nearly always associated with either (a) androphilia and childhood femininity or (b) gynephilia and erotic arousal in association with cross-dressing or cross-gender fantasy (Freund, Steiner, & Chan, 1982).
"Operating from this background, Blanchard began to investigate the relationship between sexual orientation and what he would later call autogynephilia. In an early study, Blanchard (1985) divided 163 MtF transsexual participants into four groups based sexual orientation: a androphilic group, a gynephilic group, a bisexual group (attracted to both sexes), and an analloerotic group (not attracted to other people). He found that 73% of the combined gynephilic, bisexual, and analloerotic participants reported a history of sexual arousal with cross-dressing, compared with only 15% of the androphilic participants. The observed relationship between sexual orientation and sexual arousal with cross-dressing was statistically strong, with a calculated effect size of .58 (see Table). Based on this evidence, Blanchard reaffirmed Freund et al.'s (1982) conclusion that there were probably only two basic subtypes of MtF transsexuals: a nonandrophilic subtype, composed of persons who, like transvestites, had a history of sexual arousal with cross-dressing; and an androphilic subtype, composed of persons without any history of erotic cross-dressing."

[...]

"... in nonandrophilic men with gender dysphoria, a tendency to describe oneself in a socially desirable way was correlated with a tendency to deny sexual arousal with cross-dressing, suggesting an explanation for the underreporting of autogynephilic arousal. More recently, Zucker et al. (2012) found that, among 96 adolescent boys referred to a gender clinic because of transvestism, 47% denied sexual arousal on every item of a 10-item scale measuring transvestic fetishism, although this was precisely the problem for which they had been referred. In this study, too, a tendency to socially desirable responding was associated with denial of sexual arousal with cross-dressing. Although denial of autogynephilic arousal may often be unintentional, sometimes it is deliberate: Walworth (1997) reported that 13% of 52 MtF transsexuals she surveyed admitted having lied to or misled their therapists about sexual arousal while wearing women's clothing. Lawrence (2013) presented several narratives by MtF transsexuals who had concealed or lied about autogynephilic arousal, both to psychotherapists and to other transgender persons.
"Similarly, MtF transsexuals often inaccurately report being sexually oriented towards men (androphilic), either unintentionally or deliberately. For example, in a study by Nieder et al. (2011), of 44 males diagnosed with late-onset gender dysphoria — many of whom were plausibly autogynephilic — 52% reported that they were sexually attracted to men; but the clinicians who evaluated them believed that only 9% were actually androphilic. In some cases, autogynephilic MtF transsexuals who claim to be attracted to men may simply be experiencing attraction to the idea of having their femininity validated by men, a different phenomenon. Some nonandrophilic MtF transsexuals, however, candidly admit to having lied to their therapists about attraction to men"

ErrolTheDragon · 26/08/2019 00:28

The trans women the general public might have heard of such as India Willoughby, Kelly Malone, Paris Lees and Blaire White are all attracted to men.

Three of those are 'pretty' media-friendly TW.
The other - I assume you mean Kellie Maloney - well, I'll take your word re being attracted to men, but this is someone who has been accused of racism, homophobia and who was married to a woman and admitted to nearly strangling her. Not exactly an example of the 'harmless feminine (weak) gay men ' the OPs friend imagines?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie_Maloney

OldCrone · 26/08/2019 00:28

I can't think of any trans women in the public light who are attracted to women.

Jan Morris. Married to a woman since 1949.

zebrasdontwearbras · 26/08/2019 00:29

Riley J Dennis identifies as a lesbian. Numerous twitterers do. Amanda Jette Knox now declares herself a lesbian because she married a man who transitioned Hmm

NotBadConsidering · 26/08/2019 00:36

The Daily Telegraph person.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/08/2019 00:37

I said I can't think of any famous trans women whom the general public (i.e people not obsessed by trans issues) might have heard of who say they are lesbian.

The OPs friend was lumping together transwomen and transvestites - as indeed the transgender movement now does. I've already mentioned Izzard, who has a higher public profile than those TW and who has described himself as a 'Male lesbian'.