Expelled from Girlguiding for putting safeguarding first

[KatieAlcock]

Many of you will remember that Helen Watts and another Guider were expelled from Girlguiding last year. This was me - in Sept 2018 I had my membership of Guiding withdrawn for social media breaches (one FB post in a small private group) and refusing to follow Girlguiding policies on transgender members (saying I'd put safeguarding first, ahead of any policies).
I'm a longstanding Guider and Mumsnetter (naice ham, cancel the cheque, show us the diagram) but I'm anonymous for obvious reasons, generally. I'm coming out now to tell you this story.

I appealed and the former Chief Guide who held the appeal concluded that I had not breached social media guidelines (I should jolly well hope not given that 9 people saw my post!) but that I was still refusing to follow GG policy (I gave the same statement - safeguarding comes first).

My story is in the Mail on Sunday today (if this link doesn't work I'll put a clicky link in the next post).

Mail on Sunday link

I am taking GG to court on the grounds that they have discriminated against me because of my gender critical beliefs by investigating my actions when other Guiders who complain about things are not investigated.
I am asking them for a small amount in damages because though I have not lost any income, I have lost reputation and the investigation was stressful, as you can understand.
And I've asked to be reinstated, and for a full apology and statement that I did nothing wrong.

PS... I spent an hour with their professional photographer telling me "don't smile" and they go with the photo from camp with a big grin on my face, taken by my Guide??!

[Post edited by MNHQ]

@Butters83 Scouts and schools separate the sexes. It's standard practice, not hysteria.

Thank you for doing this Katie.

You seem awfully keen to force boys and men onto unwilling girls and women,
especially whilst they are sleeping, showering, or engaging in female only activities butters83

Girls having boundaries almost seems to make you angry.

Have you considered that your attitude is somewhat disturbing?

Bravo Katie. I applaud your courage and tenacity.

Other than donating what can we do?

Can we write letters of support or accompany you to court?

Court is a long way off - but I'm sure I'll be grateful for a hand hold then, even if it's not very Mumsnetty!
Things are in the hands of GG at the moment but they have a reputation for ignoring all letters!

Butters83

Child safeguarding is not hysteria, don’t be so offensive. Safeguarding is different in mixed sex groups, it is also different between male and female carers or leaders and who is allowed to provide care or safety around children. Safeguarding frameworks exist to limit the risk of predatory men and keep children as safe as possible. We do that by not making special exceptions for a particular group who insist they don’t need to be treated like everyone else. They do. We consider every male to pose the same risk, anything else is unfair. Because of that potential risk, we have special rules around changing, showering, sleeping etc

To claim any of that is hysteria, is quite revealing actually. Do you not support child safeguarding? Why not?

“Ridiculous hysteria.”

Yes, those are the exact words they used about women in the 80s, who tried to speak out about the Catholic Church. The Church had a shit approach to safeguarding too. Which some predators took advantage of. As predators always do.

[Note - the vast majority of both priests and TW and not predatory, of course. But poor safeguarding policies will attract bad actors.]

Safeguarding is important. When people dismiss sensible concerns as “hysteria,” it only makes me more concerned.

Safeguarding is important. When people dismiss sensible concerns as “hysteria,” it only makes me more concerned

Well it's all they have isnt it.

Cries of bigotry, t*, hysteria. Debunked statistics etc eventually concluded by a a dramatic flounce...

Something I said once on another thread:

How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how.

Perhaps, butters you can explain why girl guides exclude boys and men? Or do you think that policy is 'hysterical'?

And then perhaps you can explain why that does not apply to men who say they are women or boys who say they are girls?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how

The worst thing now is I think they know this. They know they messed up. There has been enough coverage now of what's gone on.

The very people advising them.have had exposure if their own and publically been found incompetent of understanding safeguarding.

There is no way they dont realise they messed up .

So now they are actively making a choice to endanger, gaslight and subject children to emotional abuse and potential danger over admitting their mistakes and going back to how things work.

This is a choice now. They cant lookt he other way they have been hit over the head with it. They are surrounded by it.

I agree with that, Sarah.

They are now crossing their fingers and closing their eyes.

I don't know how many transwomen and transgirls have been admitted to the guides, I suspect not that many. I also suspect that anyone with deliberate intention, is biding their time.

But it will happen, and it will hit the news. Someone will want to set a precedent. Just like they are everywhere else.

if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children
Very good point @LangCleg

Even scouting allows for single sex groups within its organisation. They might be the exception rather than the rule but the rule book states they can still exist.

Butters
Yeah and I still do not understand the threat
Do you not?

Do you not understand why this is a problem?
A male-bodied person in a female space, where young girls and their leaders are enjoying recreational activites?

Do you not understand why this is a problem?

Not could be a problem.
It is a problem, here and now.

If you have to ask that question then I despair.

But it will happen, and it will hit the news. Someone will want to set a precedent. Just like they are everywhere else

It was after the verita thing I emailed them. I also asked alongside what they intend to say to an abused child that I asked them how they can claim to be inclusive when they are now EXCLUDING girls who have been abused, disabled girls, girls with sen, girls from religious back grounds, and every girl who just wants to get away from boys an hour a week.

They had nothing to say other than parroting nonsense about it wont happen and inclusion and actively told me that they will no longer respond to me.

If you don't understand the threat to safeguarding, you don't understand safeguarding.

Totally admire your guts

Quite apart from any threat posed by male bodied children and adults, apart from the important potential serious safeguarding issues, why the hell can't little girls and young women have anything that is just for little girls and young women?

Why do boys and men have to have everything?

Trans kids deserve safeguarding too. Bit off for certain posters to suggest we should do away with established safeguarding principles.

Just wow Katie. I admire you even more now.

Go watch Yaniv on Twitter and tell me you can't see safeguarding issues there. All kids deserve protection and ripping up the rule book without consideration isn't the way to do it.

Hi

Very sorry to hear of this, but well done for standing up for common sense and women's rights.

Maria x

There’s a really insidious theme here that implies trans kids are sexual predators and that makes me uncomfortable.

There’s a really insidious theme here that implies trans kids are sexual predators and that makes me uncomfortable.

Nope, just horny teenagers.

Why do we separate boys and girls at all do you think?