Expelled from Girlguiding for putting safeguarding first

[KatieAlcock]

Many of you will remember that Helen Watts and another Guider were expelled from Girlguiding last year. This was me - in Sept 2018 I had my membership of Guiding withdrawn for social media breaches (one FB post in a small private group) and refusing to follow Girlguiding policies on transgender members (saying I'd put safeguarding first, ahead of any policies).
I'm a longstanding Guider and Mumsnetter (naice ham, cancel the cheque, show us the diagram) but I'm anonymous for obvious reasons, generally. I'm coming out now to tell you this story.

I appealed and the former Chief Guide who held the appeal concluded that I had not breached social media guidelines (I should jolly well hope not given that 9 people saw my post!) but that I was still refusing to follow GG policy (I gave the same statement - safeguarding comes first).

My story is in the Mail on Sunday today (if this link doesn't work I'll put a clicky link in the next post).

Mail on Sunday link

I am taking GG to court on the grounds that they have discriminated against me because of my gender critical beliefs by investigating my actions when other Guiders who complain about things are not investigated.
I am asking them for a small amount in damages because though I have not lost any income, I have lost reputation and the investigation was stressful, as you can understand.
And I've asked to be reinstated, and for a full apology and statement that I did nothing wrong.

PS... I spent an hour with their professional photographer telling me "don't smile" and they go with the photo from camp with a big grin on my face, taken by my Guide??!

[Post edited by MNHQ]

A male to female leader would help my child toilet, change etc and I would not know?

Also, when you say 'male to female' you actually mean 'man'.

Just to remind everyone not to mention any sort of funding or donations if they were to be involved with this. The whole thread will get pulled if you keep mentioning that!

Please don’t violate the MN guidelines re crowdfunding

Thanks for your stance on this, Katie. A huge concern for me with a vulnerable teen at Guides. It beggars belief that all the sensible information about safeguarding is thrown out of the window, which protects no one.

Thank you Katie.

As a Queen's Guide who experienced CSA, the Brownies and Guides offered a safe haven from males where I could explore the world in relative safety, certainly more safety than I experienced outside Guiding. I'm not going to be the only little girl in that position in GGs, the difference between then and now is that, for a couple of hours each week and for a blissful few days each year, I was entirely free of males, where I might not be now. That loss causes me great sadness.

What you're doing is more important than you will ever know.

Slightly off topic, but Sanchez Manning writes well and gets it. She does not seem to get the same credit as those on more heavy weight papers, so I was pleased to see she won the award for "Specialist Journalist of the Year" from the Society of Editors earlier this year.

She has done a lot to bring this subject to a broader readership, so good she has been recognised.

And thank you Katie. It sounds daunting. Where will the case be heard? Happy to support in practical ways? (Mentally preparing my banner.)

This case is so important.

People who care for children must be able to put safeguarding first.

Slightly off topic, but Sanchez Manning writes well and gets it. She does not seem to get the same credit as those on more heavy weight papers, so I was pleased to see she won the award for "Specialist Journalist of the Year" from the Society of Editors earlier this year.

She has done a lot to bring this subject to a broader readership, so good she has been recognised.

I’ve noticed this too. I’m always mentally adding “and Sanchez Manning” when journalists who have written on this issue are listed on MN. Thank you Sanchez.

Brilliant, thanks for doing this. I've just donated. (Just putting this on record for when all the hysteria starts about it being bankrolled by the Christan right .)

Is there a link somewhere?

Thanks Katie. I'm sorry GGUK have put you through this. But thank you for standing up for girls.

When I became aware of this policy I wrote several times to GGUK, raising concerns about safeguarding, the resulting exclusion of some girls, violation of the rights of children - all hanging off this policy of theirs. They didn't care.

Safeguarding against.... what?

I don’t understand what the threat is?

Read the article.

Safeguarding against.... what? I don’t understand what the threat is?

You don't?

Who [as a class] is usually a threat to women and girls?

Yeah and I still do not understand the threat. Someone please explicitly explain the danger of a trans child ?

Safeguarding against.... what?

Sexual activity between minors that could possibly lead to underage pregnancy.

Male people, with male anatomy, performing intimate care for girl minors.

All parents in the UK have a legal responsibility to safeguard their children. Not a good look, being this ignorant about it.

Thank you so much Katie and Helen for what you have done and are doing. My daughter is now 3, and I am hoping that GG sort themselves out so she can become a brownie when the time comes. Hopefully the sunlight of a court case may be the catalyst to do just that.

If they continue on their current trajectory she will never join, as I can't knowingly put my child into an environment where the organisation has shown a complete disregard for her safety. It breaks my heart as I adored brownies and my mum was brown owl (I would love to volunteer myself), however GG right now has a massive neon flashing light over them that screeches "we are dodgy and don't give a shit".

There’s none so blind as refuse to see.

Oh are we back to having to have some approved list of circumstances and incidents to justify why girls dont want to get changed with or shower with boys?

Cant they just , you know, want some.privacy. there is already a mixed sex organisation that does the same stuff that trans kids can join.

The only reason they'd join.guides is that they or their parents want to make some kind of point at the expense of their child and/or everyone elses.

Thank you Katie
Gg should be ashamed of themselves. I asked them.Once in an email if intended to gaslight an abused child into believing what happened to her was not what really happened to her.

Funnily enough they didnt answer me and told me that they will no longer engage in the.conversation.

Katie and helen are unsung heroes imo!!

Ridiculous hysteria - this is exactly the same fear peddling the happened with gay men and women.

When you look at all the potential for abusing loopholes flagged on the Challenor birth certificate thread how can GG justify their stance and ignore parental rights and safeguarding?

@Butters83
If you aren't allowed to disclose that someone is trans, you can be asked to keep risky secrets (please read the article).
If adult men and underage boys are no more risky than women and girls, why are they not allowed to share sleeping and toilet accommodation on camps with Guides?
And girls who have been abused by men, and are traumatised by unexpected encounters, this would not be safe for them.

A child can not be a trans child in the Uk legally.

Self id is not legal

Ridiculous hysteria - this is exactly the same fear peddling the happened with gay men and women

Lol.

Grey rock.

We each as individuals are entitled to our own options. Butters et al and similar posts are appearing on a number of threads) are entitled not to understand or to agree. What concerns me is that they then seem to think they have an entitlement to divert discussion and make it all about them.

Butters' argument is "I don't understand". We are supposed to explain. Unless the reason Butters cannot understand is because they are intellectually challenged, I suggest they explain to us why a trans girl would not pose a threat, or even discomfort, to our daughters if our daughters were told, without prior warning and without our knowledge, that they would be expected to share a tent. Especially, say, if our daughters had known this transgirl when presenting in their previous gender, perhaps say, in the year above at school.

Over to you Butters. I will read your response carefully and perhaps we can all have a constructive discussion. You do your cause no good by simply closing down debate via diversion.