How to talk to super-woke family?

[Ritascornershop]

My youngest has been away at college and has recently returned. He has an older sister who is gender critical: he is very left wing on all issues, imo doesn’t try to see other sides in issues, and takes things very personally. Like a lot of people his age.

I’ve found we disagree on politics only when it comes to issues affecting women. He believes the burka to be non-oppressive/ I disagree. He believed men got the short end when it came to custody (got that idea from his dad/my exh)/ I did get him to look at links that showed that in our country the default is 50-50 custody so he backed off on that. He believes that trans people have gender dysphoria, but also that they are terribly oppressed, at serious risk in the US of “being rounded up and murdered by the state”, should be allowed in women’s spaces etc.

I’d really rather not argue about it as my wonderful facts have never persuaded anyone of anything. So from now on I guess I’m just saying “hmmm”? I cannot stand confrontation. Can’t stand it. But of course a (young) man storming out of the room when I disagree with him (right now he’s stormed off for a walk) cannot help but feel oppressive. As if I’m not allowed to have a different opinion than him. To be fair, he’s probably like this if his dad offers a different opinion too - his abhorrence I’d different opinions is not restricted to women who disagree, but I do think he’s very unaware of how it comes across when disagreeing with a woman (his mum).

This is my kid and he has so many wonderful qualities!! And I figure in time he’ll mellow. But aside from annoying the fuck out of me, I worry he’ll be somewhat intolerable to other people with this “how dare you not be as woke as me!” attitude.

When I was his age, in the 80’s, I had relatives who were Thatcherites and I was flummoxed by their stupidity, but did zero flouncing out of rooms.

Anyone have words of wisdom for weathering this stage? It’s the only thing we ever disagree on!

Oh, and he thinks “the vast, vast majority of feminists” are not gender critical. He had never heard the term gender critical till I said to him earlier in the week when I was explaining why TERF is a slur (& he looked it up, went to Reddit, and based on that has decided that anyone gender critical is either a far right religious nut or someone naive enough to get sucked in by them. Based on reading a Reddit thread). He’s also never heard of Jonathan Yaniv, Meghan Murphy, or Magdalene Berns.

Honestly, he is such a smart and kind person. But is the best way to live through young adults like this just to think about meerkats when they start in on their pet subject? I think a lot of people at that age ... their brains are sort of ready for a row.

Just be yourself. If they don't like it well......

My DD is very woke, one of the few things we clash over (except her desire to play K-pop in the car!) and really not much you can do. I've clearly stated my views on the issues, she has clearly stated hers. She does listen and has changed some viewpoints, the JY debacle is a good place to show what can go wrong. I've also showed her stories like the very young siblings in the USA who transitioned and had their sex legally changed aged 5 and 7 which she agreed was craziness. There are other things she will not shift on, i.e. she believes lesbians can have penises and a man with a beard can just identify as a woman and be accepted as such.

Ultimately I think we need to recognise that our kids might not disagree with us and just tolerate it. Them flouncing is not a good move, maybe best to just step away from the subject unless he brings it up.

But I can’t stand arguing with people. He’ll be living at home for the coming year and I want that year to be peaceful and pleasant. We get along really well so long as we don’t talk about this sort of thing.

What upset him today was that he said the Americans in Afghanistan is terrible and that “most people in Afghanistan support the Taliban”. I had the temerity to say that probably most women didn’t. That reminded him of the time I disagreed on trans issues and he stamped off in a huff.

I do have a mania for sorting things out and not having people angry with each other, so there’s that.

Thanks Ginger. I would not be surprised to hear him agree that lesbians can have penises. Sigh. He just gets so emotional about it. I guess I long ago accepted that most people hold daft opinions and there’s nothing I can do about it. He seems perpetually outraged that people hold different opinions. I suppose I have to hope he outgrows the flouncing (& acquires some patience).

I'm sorry I don't have any experience of this yet. Your post, to me, shows the amount of biased views being pushed onto young people now through institutions. It is tantamount to brainwashing if they aren't able to have a debate on a subject without flouncing out of a room.

The real world will be a shock to them. The whole 'tolerance of everyone and their beliefs' upbringing that a lot of left wing families have is going to cause no end of issues. It's ok for people to be critical of issues - we don't have to 'tolerate' things we don't agree with.

I’m left wing, but also don’t accept party platforms blindly. Thus far he’s had a tendency to find a candidate he likes and slightly hero worship them. And he’s very passionate about all political issues, but this is the one thing he really won’t tolerate dissent on.

I think younger people are very much in an echo chamber on this. His sister is not, but she’s very bolshie and very much (my definition of) a feminist.

"I’ve found we disagree on politics only when it comes to issues affecting women"

Maybe a blunt 'You're not a woman' would suffice. Remind him he's a boy who should start respecting what actual women believe.

Just answer any of the iffy things he says with "Don't you oppress me with that patriarchal misogyny" & flounce off before he gets the chance to. Start watching "The Life Of Brian" a lot - you KNOW which scene
We were all young once & probably just as bad in our own way.

I like that Cool. I do feel his heart is in the right place, he wants to support the oppressed. He’s just got the idea that women are no longer oppressed. But you’re right, a blunt reminder of who has a stake in these issues.

I like that Eileen!! He loves Python so that might work.

Yes I think you've hit the nail on the head. The women he's around at college are most likely not oppressed as they speak their beliefs freely.

Perhaps he should look at incidents of rape and sexual harassment at university?

He’s grown up seeing women in charge at school, me having women supervisors more often than men, women having lots of theoretical rights ... I suspect he thinks the struggle is mostly won.

Host, I think he gets that sort of thing but doesn’t understand how that impacts every woman’s daily life. How we have to be careful about where we sit, who we speak to, what time of day it’s safe for us to go out etc. How men’s behaviour impacts on us, so some issues are currently slightly beyond his ken.

tell him to look at this

oops posted too soon - its a list that a researcher wrote about how people think about their safety. Guess which column is in the mans. Obviously owning a firearm is not applicable in the UK

Invisible Women

Point him towards invisible women which outlines a lot of the ways women are still disadvantaged in society.

Thanks Cool and Ginger. I do notice, living with a young man, how much less he thinks about his safety than I or my daughter do.

Ginger, even the little bits in the Amazon preview are very telling. My phone (& my hands) are quite small, but some of them are enormous.

No worries, I hope you manage to have some good thought provoking debates with your son. I (think) I am looking forward to when my daughter is that age Goodness knows what the wokeness will be like then

I did get him to look at links that showed that in our country the default is 50-50 custody so he backed off on that.

Unfortunately this is not the case in all countries, especially if you're not married. My DS has a daughter with an Austrian woman, and in Austria if she is not married the mother gets full custody and can basically do as she wants with the child -- my son has NO rights he can uphold. He only gets to see her every few months.
It's an awful situation.
He is btw extremely GC. The mother is very much "child led" in how she raises their child and I'm pretty certain if the girl said "I'm a boy" she'd go along with it. Which is thank heavens not likely as Austria is far behind the UK in gender ideology; for the time being.

My son, the one in the post above this, though GC, used to think it was a minor issue and I shouldn't pay too much attention to it; it's so ridiculous it can't last. And he'd compare the damage done by TRAs to children starving in Yemen and tell me I should be much more an activist about war and starving children because that's much more important.

But he has been listening to me and more and more he is realising what the consequences can be -- like when I ask him if he'd be OK with his daughter sharing a shower with a naked 50 year old man, or having to go (when she'd older) to a public toilet at night where she might very well encounter a male who has every right to be there, as he's "a woman". That makes him think.

Red pills are a cure for 'woke'.