How to talk to super-woke family?

[Ritascornershop]

My youngest has been away at college and has recently returned. He has an older sister who is gender critical: he is very left wing on all issues, imo doesn’t try to see other sides in issues, and takes things very personally. Like a lot of people his age.

I’ve found we disagree on politics only when it comes to issues affecting women. He believes the burka to be non-oppressive/ I disagree. He believed men got the short end when it came to custody (got that idea from his dad/my exh)/ I did get him to look at links that showed that in our country the default is 50-50 custody so he backed off on that. He believes that trans people have gender dysphoria, but also that they are terribly oppressed, at serious risk in the US of “being rounded up and murdered by the state”, should be allowed in women’s spaces etc.

I’d really rather not argue about it as my wonderful facts have never persuaded anyone of anything. So from now on I guess I’m just saying “hmmm”? I cannot stand confrontation. Can’t stand it. But of course a (young) man storming out of the room when I disagree with him (right now he’s stormed off for a walk) cannot help but feel oppressive. As if I’m not allowed to have a different opinion than him. To be fair, he’s probably like this if his dad offers a different opinion too - his abhorrence I’d different opinions is not restricted to women who disagree, but I do think he’s very unaware of how it comes across when disagreeing with a woman (his mum).

This is my kid and he has so many wonderful qualities!! And I figure in time he’ll mellow. But aside from annoying the fuck out of me, I worry he’ll be somewhat intolerable to other people with this “how dare you not be as woke as me!” attitude.

When I was his age, in the 80’s, I had relatives who were Thatcherites and I was flummoxed by their stupidity, but did zero flouncing out of rooms.

Anyone have words of wisdom for weathering this stage? It’s the only thing we ever disagree on!

To be honest I'd find it difficult if family members had voted differently in the Referendum. (My mother was German, so it would involve the people nearest to me telling me that I didn't belong in the country that she had made her home.) Sometimes politics is deeply important on a personal level. At other timest it s more a matter of virtue signalling.

With people like this, I play dumb and ask them to explain the logic/ science to me...

They can’t bamboozle me with long words. I have a phd in science.

With people like this, I play dumb and ask them to explain the logic/ science to me...

This can be really effective. When DD told me about her PSHE talk that concluded TWAW I bit my tongue, just said mmmmmm, I take it this wasn't a biology teacher speaking?..... A pause for thought was all I was after, I got one plus a snigger. Just keep gently probing.

Is that what woke means? I've got 2 DDs like that but never heard the term woke.

Sorty OP i find his flouncing hillarious.

At that age i had strong opinions, still do but not necessarily the same ones, but i argued my points. I loved a good debate and often played devils advocate. Could you not encourage some debating skilks? Explain that other people have different opinions and beliefs that it is ok to disagree with and its also ok to debate and learn from each other? That is afterall how compromises are made and a very important life skill. Lets face it employers are not going to take kindly to someone flouncing out everytime anyone disagrees.

I agree that its more the behaviour in the argument i.e. storming out that should be called out than his beliefs. The more you tell him he's wrong in what he believes the more he'll dig his heels in but flouncing off when he's disagreed with is not OK. I'm almost certain that he wouldnt do that at College when he's arguing so why does he think it's OK to do it at home. Does he think when he gets a job that he'll get to just walk off every time he's disagreed with or does he just think it's OK to do it to mum? Ive a sneaking suspicion he just thinks it's OK to do it to you because there arent consequences i.e. you wont laugh at him as Im sure his friends would if he flounced off and you wont sack him as would happen at work if he stormed off

and yes it is very oppressive when men storm off because we've been socialised to keep them happy :/

I would stay away from the actual issues themselves but ask to have a chat with him about how to engage in healthy debate with other people.

Explain to him that it's not appropriate to flounce out of rooms over a difference of opinion and illustrate how to discuss things in a mature and educated manner.

Hopefully it'll hit home that he doesn't want to look like a petulant little kid and that he would rather get his point across in a mature manner.

I would be grateful that at least he is opinionated and interested in politics and womens issues etc etc. Encourage him to expand his reading (as should you) so you do not become tunnel visioned around issues.
Tell him you are happy to chat and debate as long as it doesnt get heated and personal. If he cannot stick to those rules then just say the topics are off limits.

He is a young man trying to find his way in the patriarchy.
At the moment he is at the bottom of the man heap.
Kept down by the older men who are in charge.
He sees that his young female peer group has more power than he does, and they do.

But he will start ascending up the hierarchy right up until he is elderly, finding his place in the world.
And his female peers will slowly be sliding back.

Use clear language and question his beliefs if he brings up the issue.

Why do you believe women are male and female? When did you start to believe this? Would you date a male woman? Why don't you think I should be allowed same sex care, don't I deserve privacy and dignity in my old age? Why do you want women to lose rights, do you think they have too many?

Always state what you are for, not what you are against. I want women and girls to have representation without always including males. After MeToo I know women and girls need to retain strong boundaries. Always use sex where you mean sex. It's okay to disagree too, life innit

Two women- his mum and sister, are telling him something and he doesn’t want to listen, yet it is about women.
He’s only young so can be forgiven, but he really needs to learn to listen to what women are telling him is their experience, or he’ll be a misogynist.

Yes, it's really the behaviour I would be concerned about. It may be notable that your daughter thought you were an idiot at a younger age, boys are often a little behind girls in maturity. He may well grow out of it.

But if it's making things unpleasant and he will be around, I think I would talk to him, maybe even a little sternly, about having respect for others in our behaviour. A good principle is if you can't talk about an issue respectfully, don't talk about it.

I think many young people have come to believe that anyone who holds certain views must be terrible, a bigot, and so on. And TBH I think that is the fault, largely, of the older generation which has been quite clear in saying that people who have particular views must be either bigots or morons. I still meet older people who think that way, it is like they have never grown up.

Thanks all. Absinthe, sounds like yours and mine would get along.

I think on the trans issue a lot of young people immediately swerve away from critical thinking as they feel that to question any of it is equivalent to being homophobic.

I do intend, when he’s relaxed, to talk to him about how the stamping off in a huff is not good/how respecting other people’s right to have different opinions is a sign of mature thinking/being aware that when talking to members of a group about issues that affect that group it’s important to “check your privilege”. It’s a process!

I think on the trans issue a lot of young people immediately swerve away from critical thinking as they feel that to question any of it is equivalent to being homophobic

From my perspective, this is part of the problem, why so many young people have learned this. Over and over they have seen people who might have a different view on sexual behaviour, or marriage equality, or even something like surrogacy for gay couples, be branded as homophobic. With no need to even consider why they might hold that view, the assumption is it must be bigotry. It's similar for racism though maybe less of a live issue for young people, anyone with an unusual viewpoint is seen as bigot without any need to really explore the ideas.

It should not be a surprise that they take the same approach with whatever the current political program says.

Also - check your privilege can be a two-edged sword. It's one thing to remind people to listen, but that line gets used by TRAs a lot. Even people who have been oppressed can be wrong about things.

He is one of the most curious people I know ... but when it’s something like this he seems to have no curiosity about why I think that and immediately goes to thinking it’s bigotry.

If I was a lesbian I’d find it bloody annoying people equating sexual preference with dysphoria and fetishes like autogynephelia.